Brain vs soul.
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18-03-2017, 12:22 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Shane... let me ask you a serious question... Are you just trolling? or do you really think this?

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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18-03-2017, 12:24 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 12:10 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Asking if a person has a "soul" is similar to me asking if someone else is having an "experience" like I am, or is just exhibiting all the outward indications of having one.

If there's no test, no way to distinguish between someone with and without these things, it's unfalsifiable. This makes them useless concepts scientifically, until such time as this can be addressed. How can I tell if someone has a soul, or just exhibits all the signs of having one but doesn't really? If the answer is, "There's no way to tell", then it's a useless concept. It doesn't mean it's not real, it just means it's untestable and unnecessary as far as models go. And there's no reason to think it's real, either.

Or if you just state it's impossible for a human to not have a soul then it's just again an unnecessary extra assumption.

I explain in detail why falsifiability is so important in this vid.




Dude Rob, you are one sexy beast.

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18-03-2017, 12:26 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(17-03-2017 11:53 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 11:40 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Corals and jellyfish (Cnidarians) are just two animals that have no brain & are self aware.
They feed themselves & have sex without a brain. Are they not self aware based on the definition of self awareness?
Is this not an ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

Do jellyfish have language? Do they give themselves a name to distinguish themselves from everything else? Do they have the mental capacity to formulate questions, let alone ask 'who am I?'

Near as we can tell, they do not. They may be aware of the environment, but they are not aware of the 'self' in the philosophical sense, in the same way humans can. Jellyfish are not contemplating 'I think, therefore I am'.
Self awareness is not defined as the ability to have language, name oneself, formulate questions & contemplate.
If it were then I would have lost this argument ages ago.

10 points for creativity though.
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18-03-2017, 12:27 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Jesse: I... am? Blush

Wow, thank you Heart Much appreciated Big Grin

It seems Shane thinks that Jellyfish have souls, because (according to him) they are self-aware. Since they don't have a brain to do this, it must be some magical thing.

If he doesn't think that, his argument falls apart.

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18-03-2017, 12:28 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
*Sigh*

(18-03-2017 12:13 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  A distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body.

Okay, if this thing 'Soul' is separate and distinct from the 'Body' then,

(A) 'Where' is it?
(B) 'How' does it come about/form?
(C ) 'What' is its way of interacting with... anything at all.. really?
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18-03-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
If it's distinct, then it being aware of the brain and the rest of the body isn't being "self-aware". It's some magical thing, being aware of a different entity.

Did you know that rocks are also self-aware? If I kick one, it knows I've kicked it, because it moves itself.

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18-03-2017, 12:30 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 12:37 AM by JesseB.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 12:27 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Jesse: I... am? Blush

Wow, thank you Heart Much appreciated Big Grin

It seems Shane thinks that Jellyfish have souls, because (according to him) they are self-aware. Since they don't have a brain to do this, it must be some magical thing.

If he doesn't think that, his argument falls apart.

Yup.

I mean we have tests for self awareness. In fact we do score animals on this test. Some score higher than others (of course the base line being 0), none really come close to humans that I'm aware of.

I'd really like to see his study that demonstrates jellyfish poses self awareness, and I'd like to know where they score on the self awareness scale....

I mean wiki is a pretty shit source, but then this argument has gotten too stupid for me to put any more real effort into it, but I don't see Jellyfish anywhere on this page.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

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18-03-2017, 12:33 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Shane already thinks he knows more than all of science so I doubt he's going to care about what any study might show. That would be caring about what's real, rather than how things seem to him.

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18-03-2017, 12:34 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 12:13 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I posted this 2 days ago:

Soul:
The principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body.

Do you see any mention of an afterlife here? Yes I agree it is generally associated with the afterlife by theists, but I am not a theist so I'll just stick with the above definition until further data can be provided.

It's a copy/paste from dictionary.com btw

I posit that "the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action" in any living thing is what we call self awareness.
I further posit that the self awareness still occurs once one is not brain dead.
I further posit that the cause of self awareness is not the brain because brainless jelly fishes ARE self aware.

I posit it is more rational to believe that self awareness occurs external to the body than to believe it exists somewhere in the body.


So what? Mind/body duality has soundly been debunked, and you now find yourself fighting uphill against the collective understanding of biologists, neurologists, and physicists. If awareness was external, then explain why brain trauma directly correlates to diminished brain functionality. Why do people that lose oxygen to the brain for extended period (i.e. drowning), but are resuscitated, not identical to their pre-brain damaged self? If they are not connected, if the awareness is external to our grey matter, then cognition should be independent of damage to the brain; a conclusion soundly disproved by pretty much the entire field of neurology.

Also, good luck having a conversation with a jellyfish and questioning it about its thoughts and feelings on life and the self. Good luck with that dipshit. Drinking Beverage

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18-03-2017, 12:44 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 12:26 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Self awareness is not defined as the ability to have language, name oneself, formulate questions & contemplate.
If it were then I would have lost this argument ages ago.

10 points for creativity though.

Hey dipshit! If you put a jellyfish in front of a mirror, it will not recognize the reflection as itself. Because it has no sense of self, no self identity; it lacks the high level cognition to be capable of doing so. It is a very simple creature reacting to the stimuli in its environment. It is not self aware.

Chimpanzees and Dolphins are self aware, jellyfish are not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test




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