Brain vs soul.
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18-03-2017, 04:28 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 04:38 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 04:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 02:08 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This is all well and good but,
I don't posit that consciousness is exclusive of the brain. I see no reason for it to be exclusive of the brain.
I posit that self awareness is exclusive of the brain.

Self awareness occurs in brainless jelly fishes & near death survivors whose body dies but the brain doesn't.
If self awareness is exclusive of both brain & body then how can we still claim it is a function of the body?
If anything the body is a function of self awareness & not the other way around.

There is no example you can site where self-awareness is independent of a brain, or is not impaired by disease or death in a brain. You have no evidence that self-awareness occurs in jelly fish. Reflexive actions are not self-awareness. Near death experiences are evidence of nothing except de-saturation of oxygen in brains. You clearly know next to nothing about science. There is not a shred of evidence that the body is a function of anything, (OR unexplained things would be happening all the time, such as cancers being cured by thoughts, and they are not). You're nothing but a woo-monger. There is no instance where "the body dies, but the brain doesn't", but thanks for AGREEING with me about self-awareness being dependent on a brain. Doh. Facepalm
I never agreed that self awareness is dependent on the brain.
I agreed that consciousness is dependent on the brain
I posit that the brain & body is dependent of self awareness & that self awareness does not reside within the body

Wiki states:
Self-awareness is the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals

By that definition a brainless Jelly Fish should be classified as Self Aware. It has the ability to recognize itself when it feeds & reproduces & is therefore aware of itself, it's environment & others.

It would appear you & many others here, are conflating Self Awareness with Cognition

wiki
Cognition:
The mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses

I argue that a sense of self is independent of a brain and others argue that a sense of cognition is dependent on the brain.
Neither of us are wrong but the counter argument put forward is not relative to self awareness.

This is the 7th time I have said this in this thread. Why is no-one willing to address or counter argue this point?

If I am wrong with my interpretation of Self Awareness then show me please, for I do not see how anyone here can posit self awareness (a sense of self) is not what causes a Jellyfish to feed.

What would you call an ability to recognize the body you inhabit is hungry, that you need to feed it & how to feed it? This is self awareness in it's most purest/fundamental/basic sense. On what logical grounds would you ignore this point i have made? Is it not a logical statement & is it not in-keeping with the definition of self-awareness?

On what grounds do you or anyone else here claim self awareness starts when we begin to cognitively rationalize our existence? It obviously didn't come from the definition.
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18-03-2017, 04:52 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 04:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  On what grounds do you or anyone else here claim self awareness starts when we begin to cognitively rationalize our existence? It obviously didn't come from the definition.

Nor did it come from any one here ... but you. Angel

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-03-2017, 05:22 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 04:52 PM)kim Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 04:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  On what grounds do you or anyone else here claim self awareness starts when we begin to cognitively rationalize our existence? It obviously didn't come from the definition.

Nor did it come from any one here ... but you. Angel
I do not posit "self awareness starts when we begin to cognitively rationalize our existence"

That being said then how does any here conclude that self awareness emerges out of brain function?
If they cannot explain it themselves at least give me a source for your claim.
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18-03-2017, 05:50 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 05:22 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I do not posit "self awareness starts when we begin to cognitively rationalize our existence"

That being said then how does any here conclude that self awareness emerges out of brain function?
If they cannot explain it themselves at least give me a source for my claim.

Fix't that for ya. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-03-2017, 05:53 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 05:50 PM)kim Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 05:22 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I do not posit "self awareness starts when we begin to cognitively rationalize our existence"

That being said then how does any here conclude that self awareness emerges out of brain function?
If they cannot explain it themselves at least give me a source for my claim.

Fix't that for ya. Shy

Agnostic Shane would say that eggs can't cause chickens because chickens cause eggs.

Big Grin
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18-03-2017, 05:57 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 06:07 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 05:53 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 05:50 PM)kim Wrote:  Fix't that for ya. Shy

Agnostic Shane would say that eggs can't cause chickens because chickens cause eggs.

Big Grin

That's just it, Shane kept asking me to hit every single one of his idiotic ideas with a hammer. As an intelligent person it was clearly a game of whack a mole. And I only devote so much time to dealing with stupid. Especially when 5 min of effort and he could have done so much better.

I mean I really think he's just trolling for attention at this point. He's made it clear in many posts he likes being a troll. And while I don't care too much, I just have better ways to spend my time. I prefer to spend my time dealing with less crazy people like you Jay, people that can hold a more meaningful, fun and interesting conversation Smile

I found a quote I wanted to add to this, took me a few min to remember what page it was on.
“Ender didn't like fighting. He didn't like Peter's kind, the strong against the weak, and he didn't like his own kind either, the smart against the stupid.”
Orson Scott Card, Ender's Game

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
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18-03-2017, 06:01 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 05:50 PM)kim Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 05:22 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I do not posit "self awareness starts when we begin to cognitively rationalize our existence"

That being said then how does any here conclude that self awareness emerges out of brain function?
If they cannot explain it themselves at least give me a source for my claim.

Fix't that for ya. Shy
Ok. Great no one here is claiming that self awareness emerges or begins in the brain then.

Except Unbeliever, Bucky, JesseB, Heart Tierny, Jay Vogel, DLJ & momsorroundedbyboys.

Kim. Your turning out to be quite the little play toy. I'm so proud of you.
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18-03-2017, 06:05 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 05:57 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 05:53 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  Agnostic Shane would say that eggs can't cause chickens because chickens cause eggs.

Big Grin

That's just it, Shane kept asking me to hit every single one of his idiotic ideas with a hammer. As an intelligent person it was clearly a game of whack a mole. And I only devote so much time to dealing with stupid. Especially when 5 min of effort and he could have done so much better.

I mean I really think he's just trolling for attention at this point. He's made it clear in many posts he likes being a troll. And while I don't care too much, I just have better ways to spend my time. I prefer to spend my time dealing with less crazy people like you Jay, people that can hold a more meaningful, fun and interesting conversation Smile
Just one would have been sufficient.
6 examples given where JesseB makes unsubstantiated claims to prove a point & to date none have been substantiated or even mildly addressed.
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18-03-2017, 07:41 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
http://www.psychology.emory.edu/cognitio...levels.pdf
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/grea...-awareness
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ess-arise/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_cogn...evelopment
http://www.parentingcounts.org/informati...24-months/
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=self...EQgQMIGDAA

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-03-2017, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 09:47 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(18-03-2017 07:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.psychology.emory.edu/cognitio...levels.pdf
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/grea...-awareness
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ess-arise/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_cogn...evelopment
http://www.parentingcounts.org/informati...24-months/
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=self...EQgQMIGDAA
How do these articles prove self awareness is emergent after birth?

These articles work in favor of my argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_cog...evelopment says:
"Right from birth infants are able to differentiate the self from the non-self"
This is evidence that self awareness is not emergent, but rather that we are born with it.

http://www.psychology.emory.edu/cognitio...levels.pdf says:
"infants from birth manifest an implicit sense of themselves"
This means self awareness is not emergent after birth & it does not make the claim that it is caused by birth either. Manifest means inherently obvious.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/gre...-awareness says:
"The fetus is forced from its paradisic existence in the protected, aqueous and warm womb into a hostile, aerial and cold world that assaults its senses with utterly foreign sounds, smells and sights, a highly stressful event."
This article clear speaks about a fetus having senses & stress at birth

http://www.parentingcounts.org/informati...24-months/ says:
"15 and 24 months, children take a large step in self-awareness"
A large step in self awareness does not equate emergent self awareness. An increase requires it to be there in the first place

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/gre...-awareness says:
"Evidence for Increased Self-Awareness" at 18 months
This article speaks about an increase in self awareness at 18 months and gives no indication when did self awareness emerge before that.

Conclusion. Based on the articles Bucky posted there is an overwhelming insistence that Self Awareness is present at the inception of birth & not a single article has stated that self awareness is emergent after birth. Many of them speak about an increase in self awareness after birth, but we aren't looking for an increase, we are looking for the cause of self awareness within the body.
In fact any attempt to claim that self awareness is emergent after birth is a contradiction to these articles.

So again I ask. Why do some people posit that self awareness is emergent after birth?

Bucky can you post me a few more articles for me to research? I thoroughly enjoyed that.

For those of you that posit Self Awareness is "brain function", I would just like to point out none of these articles make that claim.
For those of you that posit the brain precedes self awareness, I would just like to point out none of these articles make that claim either.

Further reading:
According to this article:
http://www.modernmom.com/9da32444-3b45-1...4a41e.html
On the 4th week of gestation, the brain begins functioning. At this point, the brain busily begins to work on the placement of all the major organs and systems.
Can this be more clear?
A sense of self is manifest the instant the brain starts functioning & is therefore not an emergent property of brain function.
Self Awareness can either be the initiator (pre brain) or co-initiator (tied for first place) of self sustained life, but it cannot be emergent from brain function.
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