Brain vs soul.
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19-03-2017, 11:59 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 11:56 AM)kim Wrote:  
(19-03-2017 11:53 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  So do I, and there's a whole industry based off that idea too. Ok, it's smut.

Blush

Well, as the saying goes .... "Kid tested, mother approved." Wink

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19-03-2017, 12:21 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 11:33 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-03-2017 10:32 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Sweet holy fuck x 2
The problem lies with your comprehension skills.

Self awareness is not awareness or introspection
Facepalm
Self Awareness is the CAPACITY for introspection & the ABILITY to recognize oneself among other things
Drinking Beverage


Except, that I cited the very same Wikipedia article that you did when you tried to browbeat people with your bullshit, because the article itself disagrees with you.

That's why I quoted the bits you chose to ignore, because they disagree with your assertions.

Here it is again, for posterity.

Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals. It is not to be confused with consciousness in the sense of qualia. While consciousness is a term given to being aware of one's environment and body and lifestyle, self-awareness is the recognition of that awareness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness



(19-03-2017 10:32 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  eg. Bucky has the CAPACITY to speak Arabic but this does not mean that he has the ABILITY to speak ARABIC

Ability = Actual skill, either mental or physical; native or acquired. Capacity = Potential to develop a skill, usually mental; native, as opposed to acquired. 1. Ability, capacity, capability

You lack the cognitive ability to make the distinction between a capacity & an ability Smartass


You are still fundamentally misusing 'self-awareness', by conveniently trying to ignoring the parts that don't agree with your assertions. This doesn't change that.

You technically have the capacity for introspection, a capacity you are currently squandering by acting like a complete bellend.

How do you propose to test for self-awareness?

Pro-Tip: We already have one. The mirror test. Dogs fail it.


Now apply that to bacteria.



(19-03-2017 10:32 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This CAPACITY/ABILITY is manifest at birth. Bucky even provided you with proof of this in these articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_cog...evelopment says:
"Right from birth infants are able to differentiate the self from the non-self"
This is evidence that self awareness is not emergent, but rather that we are born with it.

http://www.psychology.emory.edu/cognitio...levels.pdf says:
"infants from birth manifest an implicit sense of themselves"
This means self awareness is not emergent after birth & it does not make the claim that it is caused by birth either. Manifest means inherently obvious.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

^ The page on self-awareness that you keep forgetting to read. ^

Developmental stages

Individuals become conscious of themselves through the development of self-awareness. This particular type of self-development pertains to becoming conscious of one's own body and mental state of mind including thoughts, actions, ideas, feelings and interactions with others. "Self-awareness does not occur suddenly through one particular behavior: it develops gradually through a succession of different behaviors all of which relate to the self." The monitoring of one's mental states is called metacognition and it is considered to be an indicator that there is some concept of the self. It is developed through an early sense of non-self components using sensory and memory sources. In developing self–awareness through self-exploration and social experiences one can broaden his social world and become more familiar with the self.

According to Emory University's Philippe Rochat, there are five levels of self-awareness which unfold in early development and six potential prospects ranging from "Level 0" (having no self-awareness) advancing complexity to "Level 5" (explicit self-awareness).
  • Level 0: Confusion. At this level the individual has a degree of zero self-awareness. This person is unaware of any mirror reflection or the mirror itself. They perceive the mirror as an extension of their environment. Level 0 can also be displayed when an adult frightens himself in a mirror mistaking his own reflection as another person just for a second.
  • Level 1: Differentiation. The individual realizes the mirror is able to reflect things. They see that what is in the mirror is different from what is surrounding them. At this level they can differentiate between their own movement in the mirror and the movement of the surrounding environment.
  • Level 2: Situation. At this point an individual can link the movements on the mirror to what is perceived within their own body. This is the first hint of self-exploration on a projected surface where what is visualized on the mirror is special to the self.
  • Level 3: Identification. The individual finds out that recognition takes effect. They can now see that what's in the mirror is not another person but it is actually themselves. It is seen when a child refers to them self while looking in the mirror instead of referring to the mirror while referring to themselves. They have now identified self.
  • Level 4: Permanence. Once an individual reaches this level they can identify the self beyond the present mirror imagery. They are able to identify the self in previous pictures looking different or younger. A "permanent self" is now experienced.
  • Level 5: Self-consciousness or "meta" self-awareness. At this level not only is the self seen from a first person view but its realized that it's also seen from a third person's view. They begin to understand they can be in the mind of others. For instance, how they are seen from a public standpoint.


Infancy and early childhood

By the time an average toddler reaches 18 months they will discover themselves and recognize their own reflection in the mirror. By the age of 24 months the toddler will observe and relate their own actions to those actions of other people and the surrounding environment. There are multiple experiments that show a child's self-awareness. In what has come to be known as The Shopping Cart Task, "Children were asked to push a shopping cart to their mothers but in attempting to do so they had to step on the mat and in consequence, their body weight prevented the cart from moving".

Around school age a child's awareness of personal memory transitions into a sense of one's own self. At this stage, a child begins to develop interests along with likes and dislikes. This transition enables the awareness of an individual's past, present, and future to grow as conscious experiences are remembered more often.

As a child's self-awareness increases they tend to separate and become their own person. Their cognitive and social development allows "the taking of another's perspective and the accepting of inconsistencies." By adolescence, a coherent and integrated self-perception normally emerges. This very personal emerging perspective continues to direct and advance an individual's self-awareness throughout their adult life.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_cog...-awareness


Also, from the very same Wikipedia article you cited but, once again, chose to quote mine from instead of actually reading. You literally hit Ctrl+F, searched for 'self', and copy-pasted the first sentence that looked like it remotely agreed with you.

It's from a chart presenting self-awareness in 5 stages, with your quoted text taken from stage one only. Let's look at what the rest of the article has to say.



Self-awareness

The most common technique used in research for testing self-awareness in infants is a mirror test known as the "Rouge Test". The rouge test works by applying a dot on an infant’s face and then placing them in front of the mirror. If the infant investigates the dot on their nose by touching it, they are thought to realize their own existence and have achieved self-awareness. A number of research studies have used this technique and shown self-awareness to develop between 15 and 24 months of age. Some researchers take language such as "I, me, my, etc." as an indicator of self-awareness.

Rochat (2003) described a more in-depth developmental path in acquiring self-awareness through various stages. He described self-awareness as occurring in 5 stages beginning from birth.
  • Stage 1 - Differentiation (from birth) - Right from birth infants are able to differentiate the self from the non-self. A study using the infant rooting reflex found that infants rooted significantly less from self-stimulation, contrary to when the stimulation came from the experimenter.
  • Stage 2 - Situation (by 2 months) - In addition to differentiation, infants at this stage can also situate themselves in relation to a model. In one experiment infants were able to imitate tongue orientation from an adult model. Additionally, another sign of the differentiation is when infants bring themselves into contact with objects by reaching for them.
  • Stage 3 - Identification (by 2 years) - At this stage the more common definition of "self-awareness" comes into play, where infants can identify themselves in a mirror through the "rouge test" as well as begin to use language to refer to themselves.
  • Stage 4 – Permanence - This stage occurs after infancy when children are aware that their sense of self continues to exist across both time and space.
  • Stage 5 – Self-consciousness or meta-self-awareness - This also occurs after infancy. This is the final stage when children can see themselves in 3rd person, or how they are perceived by others.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take away? Infants do not, straight out of the womb, recognize their own reflection in a mirror. That must be developed over time.

The sources you cite only agree with you after your bastardization of the definition of 'self-awareness', and with liberal disingenuous quote mining. If you have to lie this much to make your point, you really don't have one.


(19-03-2017 10:32 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ALL LIVING things are born with "the CAPACITY for introspection & the ABILITY to recognize oneself" among other things.


So bacteria are self-aware? Then either 'self-awareness' is so broad as to be meaningless, or you're fundamentally misusing the term.

Now ignoring the fact that you ARE misusing the term, how do you propose to test the existence of self-awareness?


Now apply that test to bacteria.



(19-03-2017 10:32 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Life is a characteristic distinguishing physical entities having biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased, or because they never had such functions and are classified as inanimate.


I'm sorry, what did the Wikipedia article on self-awareness say again? You know, the part you forgot to read?

Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals. It is not to be confused with consciousness in the sense of qualia. While consciousness is a term given to being aware of one's environment and body and lifestyle, self-awareness is the recognition of that awareness.


Does all life have the capacity to recognize it's awareness? Do they all have the capacity for introspection? How are you going to test that?

Now apply it to bacteria.



(19-03-2017 10:32 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Bacteria, Immortal Worms, Octopus Arms & Portuguese Man-O-Wars all have LIFE

So. The answer is YES they are self aware because they have LIFE

Just because you don't like how something sounds doesn't mean it isn't true.


No, it has not been demonstrated that they have the capacity for recognition of their own awareness. Until you have evidence that they are capable of such, we do not need more than instincts and automated responses to explain their behavior.

Once again you are fundamentally misusing the term 'self-awareness', as defined by the very source you cited, and yet utterly failed to comprehend.

Piss off. Drinking Beverage

I mean.... I like the paper I cited like 4 times.... It's a bit more credible and hosted on a .edu site.... but if we wanna keep using wiki sure that also trounces this dunce thoroughly. Generally speaking though, wiki wouldn't be accepted by any professor I've ever met. They expect people to try harder... guess that's asking too much of shane.

Very nice read though, thanks EK

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19-03-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 11:38 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(19-03-2017 07:03 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Are you the Jefferson Beauregard of the Atheist community?
Always clamoring for the death penalty.
Luckily Mom isn't your "Trump" card

Jefferson fucking who? And I've obviously struck a raw nerve (at last LOL) with you mate. Well done to me! Thumbsup
Whatever gets it up for you ThumbsupGasp
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19-03-2017, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2017 12:35 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 10:53 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(19-03-2017 10:47 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  That would be fine Mom.
But the Goal post in this particular instance is the product of Evo's opinion & this whole debate is about us establishing the goal post before we can even begin to talk about Brains vs Souls.

No Shane, you keep conflating that any creature who is spatially aware must also be somehow self aware. I've already explained (along with many others including EK) why this is wrong earlier in this thread. Repeating something fundamentally false will not suddenly make it true just because you keep repeating it.

The worm you mentioned might have spatial awareness (and really that might be debatable), but it doesn't mean they have cognitive anything. Being able to cut them up into a hundred pieces and have them regrow their bodies is meaningless to this discussion.
Your counter argument did not negate my argument. It was unrelated.
An Iphone has capacity to be aware. You claimed that an Iphone does not have the capability to be aware.
These are not contradictory statements.
Capacity = accommodative power, whereas, Capability = developmental ability

An inanimate object has "accommodative power" to be aware but not the "developmental ability" to be aware (historically).
AI research is possible because scientists believe inanimate objects have the capacity to be aware even though they do not have a historical developmental ability to be aware.
Is this argument incoherent?
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19-03-2017, 12:32 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 12:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  AI research is possible because scientists believe inanimate objects have the capacity to be aware.

Is this argument incoherent?

What argument? AI research is possible because NP-Hard problems are hard.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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19-03-2017, 12:32 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
And we just switched the discussion yet again.

Now we're back to iPhones, because worms didn't work.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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19-03-2017, 12:32 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Quote:An Iphone has capacity to be aware.

Assertion. No evidence.

Quote:AI research is possible because scientists believe inanimate objects have the capacity to be aware.

No and no. AI research is possible. Period.
Scientists don't "believe" anything.
They make an hypothesis and look for evidence.

Quote:Is this argument incoherent?

Totally

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-03-2017, 01:00 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2017 01:10 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
EvolutionKills Wrote:
(19-03-2017 10:32 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Bacteria, Immortal Worms, Octopus Arms & Portuguese Man-O-Wars all have LIFE
So. The answer is YES they are self aware because they have LIFE
Just because you don't like how something sounds doesn't mean it isn't true.
No, it has not been demonstrated that they have the capacity for recognition of their own awareness. Until you have evidence that they are capable of such, we do not need more than instincts and automated responses to explain their behavior.
Once again you are fundamentally misusing the term 'self-awareness', as defined by the very source you cited, and yet utterly failed to comprehend.
Piss off. Drinking Beverage
You are conflating the word Capacity with Capability.
Demonstrated capacity is a contradiction
Facepalm

Capacity = potential power, whereas, Capability = developmental ability

Potential generally refers to a currently unrealized ability
Self-awareness is the "accommodative power" (not developmental ability) for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.
Life is a characteristic distinguishing physical entities having biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased, or because they never had such functions and are classified as inanimate

The fact that it has biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes proves it is alive
The fact that it is living proves it the potential/capacity for introspection
The fact that it is eating proves it has the ability to recognize itself among other things.

When you combine these 3 factors you get SELF AWARENESS
Drinking Beverage
Self Awareness is the birthright of all living organisms.
Smartass

Likewise:
A Computer/Tentacle that is signaling, self-sustaining, with the capacity for introspection & the ability to recognize itself will be considered self aware
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19-03-2017, 01:23 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2017 01:27 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 12:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
Quote:An Iphone has capacity to be aware.
Assertion. No evidence.
That actually made me laugh. Weeping
You actually got it right that time. Yes
A Capacity IS an assertion with no evidence/realization

Capacity = potential/assertive power

Laugh out load

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19-03-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 01:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
EvolutionKills Wrote:No, it has not been demonstrated that they have the capacity for recognition of their own awareness. Until you have evidence that they are capable of such, we do not need more than instincts and automated responses to explain their behavior.
Once again you are fundamentally misusing the term 'self-awareness', as defined by the very source you cited, and yet utterly failed to comprehend.
Piss off. Drinking Beverage
You are conflating the word Capacity with Capability.
Demonstrated capacity is a contradiction
Facepalm

Capacity = potential power, whereas, Capability = developmental ability

Potential generally refers to a currently unrealized ability
Self-awareness is the "accommodative power" (not developmental ability) for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.
Life is a characteristic distinguishing physical entities having biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased, or because they never had such functions and are classified as inanimate

The fact that it has biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes proves it is alive
The fact that it is living proves it the potential/capacity for introspection
The fact that it is eating proves it has the ability to recognize itself among other things.

When you combine these 3 factors you get SELF AWARENESS
Drinking Beverage
Self Awareness is the birthright of all living organisms.
Smartass

Likewise:
A Computer/Tentacle that is signaling, self-sustaining, with the capacity for introspection & the ability to recognize itself will be considered self aware


You are cherry picking interpretation of words to get a meaning out of the definition that does not match how the word is being used in context. As demonstrated by every fucking source that you cited, and chose to quote-mine. I don't care about your ad-hoc bastardized definition of 'self-awareness', because the one being used in the articles you cited completely disagreed with every assertion you tried to make.

Probably why you didn't bother reply to my whole post, because you're a spineless quote-miner.

Now, once again, piss off. Drinking Beverage

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