Brain vs soul.
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19-03-2017, 09:36 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 09:24 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Facepalm

Here we go again.

This is getting very old..

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Yes it's getting quite old because others refuse to relinquish the notion that self awareness is meta cognition even though the definition does not say that.

If they have an objection to my arguments can they not tell me what it is rather than repeatedly stating I'm wrong and wishing that would be sufficient to convince me I'm wrong? Is this too much to ask?
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19-03-2017, 09:39 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 07:15 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(19-03-2017 02:32 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You are trying (and failing) to get 'self-awareness' to have an even broader application than 'consciousness', which already doesn't apply to all life, when it's clear in context that 'self-awareness' has a much more specific and narrowly defined meaning which refers to an aspect of higher level cognition. Dogs and cats have consciousness, but lack self-awareness; because they appear to lack the ability to recognize their own awareness (i.e. they fail the mirror test).


Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals. It is not to be confused with consciousness in the sense of qualia. While consciousness is a term given to being aware of one's environment and body and lifestyle, self-awareness is the recognition of that awareness.


You are committing the very fallacy the definition warns of, mistaking mere consciousness and awareness of surroundings with self-awareness, which has a much more specific meaning and criteria. This more specific meaning and criteria is supported by all of the sources you have both cited, and dishonestly quoted-mined.


You are not fooling anybody here. So would you kindly stop lying, obfuscating, cherry-picking, quote mining, and generally being a dishonest little shit? I mean, if you have the capability to that is. Drinking Beverage

You posit that introspection is a key aspect for self awareness.

The definition does not say "self awareness is introspection..."
It says "self awareness is the capacity for introspection..."

The capacity for introspection does not equivocate introspection.

It's simple English.

Eg.
If someone tells you this Barrel has the capacity for 5 buckets of water it does not mean the barrel is the same thing as 5 buckets of water.

By your logic:
If my house caught fire & I asked you to bring me 5 buckets of water you could just throw me an empty barrel. Gasp

You do not even understand what capacity means.

A capacity is an unrestricted potential.
Eg. My Barrel can hold 5 buckets of water. It has a capacity for 5 buckets of water.

An incapacity is a restricted potential.
Eg. My Barrel cannot hold 6 buckets of water. It has an incapacity for 6 buckets of water.

To prove that any living thing has an incapacity for introspection you would first have to set a limit for introspection.
What's the defined limit for introspection & how did you get it?

If I can't find dinosaurs in the sea it does not mean the sea has an incapacity for dinosaurs

I did not conflate consciousness with self awareness because I posit that self awareness is a pre requisite of consciousness.
You however, posit that consciousness is a prerequisite of self awareness because you do not know the meaning of the word capacity.

You read the definition as:
Self Awareness is the ability of Introspection & the ability to recognize introspection, the environment & others.
Which is why you think metacognition = self awareness

Our inability to prove dogs have metacognition does not disprove self awareness in dogs.

(19-03-2017 07:34 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Can't edit above post. I wanted to add:

If you are going to claim the second part of the definition refers to an ability for introspection, etc. Then why is it that all the articles Bucky posted claim self awareness is manifest at birth but the first signs of introspection occur after 18 months.

They too understand that self awareness precedes introspection.

(19-03-2017 08:42 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The edit function is messed up. Sorry for spamming, can mods increase the time limit on editing?
In the last reply I should have used the word meta cognition & not introspection.

I wanted to add another point in my reply to EK.

Jellyfishes, octopus tentacles, Portuguese man-o-wars, immortal worms, & every single living organism has agency of sensory recognition. (which is a form of introspection)

Introspection is not limited to cognition but it is limited to agency of self.

Everything I write below is from WIKI.

Introspection can determine any number of mental states including: sensory & cognitive.

A mental state is a state of mind that an agent is in.

Agency may either be classified as unconscious, involuntary behavior, or purposeful, goal directed activity (intentional action).

Agency is the capacity of an actor to act in a given environment.

There is no universally agreed definition of what a mind is and what its distinguishing properties are. It holds the power of
... recognition...


What's that? I cannot hear you over the deafening sound of your quote-mining.

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19-03-2017, 09:41 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(19-03-2017 09:36 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If they have an objection to my arguments can they not tell me what it is rather than repeatedly stating I'm wrong and wishing that would be sufficient to convince me I'm wrong? Is this too much to ask?

I've done nothing but that, you fuckin' wanker. You literally ignored the content of every source you cited.

Now piss off.

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19-03-2017, 10:02 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Well, that had to hurt.
Consider
Or maybe that's what he's into.

Bu-bye Shame. Shy

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19-03-2017, 10:19 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Well, that's how you do work.

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19-03-2017, 10:26 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Pro Tip: When you attempt to cherry pick words in a definition in order to broaden it's scope far further than other already applicable words (e.g. consciousness), you've done fucked up. When you have to selectively read your sources out of context and quote-mine them, you've done fucked upĀ².

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20-03-2017, 01:42 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Did he ever concede that he was assigning souls to all life forms, not just humans?

What exactly happens with the split worm? Does the soul split? Or does it grow another one?

(I realize he's not here to answer that question Tongue )

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20-03-2017, 01:48 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(20-03-2017 01:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Did he ever concede that he was assigning souls to all life forms, not just humans?
...
(I realize he's not here to answer that question Tongue )

I've heard it said that after Mom's banhammer falls and the oxygen of debate is starved from the trolls brain, a troll-soul remains.

So perhaps he can answer you in another dimension?

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20-03-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
Most of what he spouted appeared to just go over his own head.

I really wanted him to at least acknowledge something about how starfish regrow back into whole starfish. Maybe it didn't fit any of his conjectured notions. Shy

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20-03-2017, 02:03 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
He did actually admit his ideas weren't falsifiable, but he couldn't make the connection between that and usefulness in modeling reality.

As so many have done before, he started conflating the real with the abstract (mathematics). I have only a basic understanding of science, but when you talk about maths you're in my back yard Evil_monster

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