Brain vs soul.
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15-03-2017, 11:49 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
To be sure I'm clear on the point I'm making....

Self awareness may play a function in our evolutionary path, but its not intrinsically needed for life to function and propagate. (meaning it may give us an advantage over life forms lacking self awareness and thereby fall under the functions of natural selection, but as you can see there is a great many life forms that lack self awareness. You're the only one I see attempting to extend self awareness to all life. In that you would be mistaken)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-03-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 11:48 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 10:16 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  We have empirical evidence of the existence black holes, the self, gravity. Dark energy (and dark matter), not yet, but it seems we're getting there. Source: Where does dark energy come from?

But your repeated stating of "Self Awareness is the evidence for a soul" does not make it true, no matter how many times you say it. Self-awareness decreases as the level of brain activity decreases. Your logic - "Forces are also evidence for the existence of something" - puts to bed your assertion that there's a soul involved, since decrease in brain activity is directly causal to decrease in self-awareness.

If a soul were involved, brain activity would be moot.

By the way, I provided evidence that the brain is fully responsible for consciousness back in post #41.

*edit to add*

There's also this bit, which is somewhat long but is very detailed and goes into the nuts-and-bolts of why Cartesian dualism is, well, just plain wrong. The real problem

Tl; dr, from the article -
What's the point of you posting hours of reading to prove a logical fallacy?
None of your articles explain what the self is, so how can you make the claim that a decrease in brain activity causes a decrease in self awareness? Environmental awareness is not Self Awareness. Blind Deaf people are no less self aware than you are.
The degree of self awareness never changes from start to finish. If you are not aware that you exist then YOU simply don't exist. Self awareness must precede any perception of reality or there is no "YOU".

Does a COD4 Gamer die when his character dies? Would you claim your friend has lost his self awareness when his character dies in the game? He will lose his game awareness for the remainder of that match, but not his self awareness.

You said "If a soul were involved, brain activity would be moot." How can you make that statement without first defining what a soul "the self" is. Too much copy pasting and too little coherency.

Please try to keep up with the argument.
Good try though.

I suspect that hours of reading could be of great benefit to you. I highly encourage you to try it.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-03-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 11:48 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 10:16 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  We have empirical evidence of the existence black holes, the self, gravity. Dark energy (and dark matter), not yet, but it seems we're getting there. Source: Where does dark energy come from?

But your repeated stating of "Self Awareness is the evidence for a soul" does not make it true, no matter how many times you say it. Self-awareness decreases as the level of brain activity decreases. Your logic - "Forces are also evidence for the existence of something" - puts to bed your assertion that there's a soul involved, since decrease in brain activity is directly causal to decrease in self-awareness.

If a soul were involved, brain activity would be moot.

By the way, I provided evidence that the brain is fully responsible for consciousness back in post #41.

*edit to add*

There's also this bit, which is somewhat long but is very detailed and goes into the nuts-and-bolts of why Cartesian dualism is, well, just plain wrong. The real problem

Tl; dr, from the article -
What's the point of you posting hours of reading to prove a logical fallacy?
None of your articles explain what the self is, so how can you make the claim that a decrease in brain activity causes a decrease in self awareness? Environmental awareness is not Self Awareness. Blind Deaf people are no less self aware than you are.
The degree of self awareness never changes from start to finish. If you are not aware that you exist then YOU simply don't exist. Self awareness must precede any perception of reality or there is no "YOU".

Does a COD4 Gamer die when his character dies? Would you claim your friend has lost his self awareness when his character dies in the game? He will lose his game awareness for the remainder of that match, but not his self awareness.

You said "If a soul were involved, brain activity would be moot." How can you make that statement without first defining what a soul "the self" is. Too much copy pasting and too little coherency.

Please try to keep up with the argument.
Good try though.

Lots of words, no coherence, no evidence, no real argument, at least one non sequiter and a veiled insult. I'll take all that as the white flag it is. Over/out.
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15-03-2017, 12:09 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 11:48 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...The degree of self awareness never changes from start to finish. If you are not aware that you exist then YOU simply don't exist. Self awareness must precede any perception of reality or there is no "YOU".

No. Alzheimer's.

Quote:Does a COD4 Gamer die when his character dies? Would you claim your friend has lost his self awareness when his character dies in the game? He will lose his game awareness for the remainder of that match, but not his self awareness.

Absurd analogy.

Quote:Please try to keep up with the argument. Good try though.

Ad hominems only decrease the validity of your own argument.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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15-03-2017, 12:31 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 12:09 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 11:48 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...The degree of self awareness never changes from start to finish. If you are not aware that you exist then YOU simply don't exist. Self awareness must precede any perception of reality or there is no "YOU".

No. Alzheimer's.

Dreaming too. Once I learned how our awareness is dependent on brain chemistry and activation, and how it isn't unitary at all, I dropped my interest in the soul theory.
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15-03-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
You fail to address my question & are bypassing the most fundamental issue.
...

I think you fail to comprehend my answers. Kim and JesseB have highlighted your error so no need for me to repeat.

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Self contained still requires self awareness.
...

So a self-contained rock is self-aware? A self-contained cell is self-aware?
Is that really your position?

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Self awareness is the ability to recognize identity.
...

Self-awareness is an entity's self-monitoring applications' monitoring system. See above regarding VM.

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
When an Amoeba touches a rock it doesn't try to feed the rock.
...

Huh

Presumably the rock is not hungry.

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
I am simply asking what is the cause for any living organism to seek anything for itself as opposed to being inanimate or otherwise.
There are two forces at play here. A sense of self & a desire to keep the self alive.
Natural selection only shows a desire to keep the self alive. It's also a concept, not actual physical evidence. These guys are begging for evidence.

Let me simplify the question a bit:
I take it you are an adherent of cause and effect.

By the use of only empirical evidence:
What gene (body part) CAUSES a desire to keep the self in an aware state?
What gene (body part) CAUSES an organism to become self aware?
Is there any lifeless objects that seek to increase self preservation?
What caused reality to go from none self aware matter to self aware matter?

These are the most fundamental characteristics of life.
...

Ah! I think I see where you are going wrong.

You are thinking of 'life' as some kind of magical substance rather than a label that is applied to entities with certain characteristics.

It was this kind of baseless thinking that led Aquinas, Aristotle etc. to go erroneously down the 'soul' path.

Better to think of it as a continuum. Maybe this will help:

[Image: aw013.jpg]

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Failure to find such evidence does not detract from the fact that organisms are self aware and desire to stay alive.
...

Some are self-aware.

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Just like gravity, we have no evidence for it outside of it's its interaction with the physical world. Scientists gave the downward force known as gravity a name so why is it so wrong to give the force of self awareness a name?

It's a force? Since when?

I have no problem with giving the VM Application, known as self-awareness, a name.

You can call it a soul. I'll call it Self-Awareness.

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15-03-2017, 12:57 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 11:44 AM)JesseB Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You fail to address my question & are bypassing the most fundamental issue.

Self contained still requires self awareness.
Self awareness is the ability to recognize identity. When an Amoeba touches a rock it doesn't try to feed the rock.

I am simply asking what is the cause for any living organism to seek anything for itself as opposed to being inanimate or otherwise.
There are two forces at play here. A sense of self & a desire to keep the self alive.
Natural selection only shows a desire to keep the self alive. It's also a concept, not actual physical evidence. These guys are begging for evidence.

Let me simplify the question a bit:
I take it you are an adherent of cause and effect.

By the use of only empirical evidence:
What gene (body part) CAUSES a desire to keep the self in an aware state?
What gene (body part) CAUSES an organism to become self aware?
Is there any lifeless objects that seek to increase self preservation?
What caused reality to go from none self aware matter to self aware matter?

These are the most fundamental characteristics of life.

Failure to find such evidence does not detract from the fact that organisms are self aware and desire to stay alive.

Just like gravity, we have no evidence for it outside of it's interaction with the physical world. Scientists gave the downward force known as gravity a name so why is it so wrong to give the force of self awareness a name?

The first flaw that sticks out to me in what you're trying to say could be summed up in one word. anthropomorphize.

Also you seem to fail to understand what self awareness is, and how we are able to identify it in life forms. http://www.psychology.emory.edu/cognitio...levels.pdf

There is no need for self awareness for cells to propagate and grow (or any other form of life, including us) The fact that we possess self awareness at all is irrelevant to our survival as a species or how we grow as a population.

Hopefully that helps a bit.
You said "There is no need for self awareness for cells to propagate and grow".
I take it you can you show one example of a cell that propagates and grows by random external forces?
It cannot grow unless there is an apparent need to grow. An un-observable driving force based on a focal point within a system.
I'm just giving this need, this driving force a name. A soul.

Here is another little tidbit:
Gravity, Black Holes & all Life Forms all share the same characteristic. An unseen force that takes from the world around it to increase the state of information within a closed system.
10 points for the first person to correctly guess where I'm going with this.
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15-03-2017, 12:59 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 01:16 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 12:37 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
You fail to address my question & are bypassing the most fundamental issue.
...

I think you fail to comprehend my answers. Kim and JesseB have highlighted your error so no need for me to repeat.

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Self contained still requires self awareness.
...

So a self-contained rock is self-aware? A self-contained cell is self-aware?
Is that really your position?

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Self awareness is the ability to recognize identity.
...

Self-awareness is an entity's self-monitoring applications' monitoring system. See above regarding VM.

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
When an Amoeba touches a rock it doesn't try to feed the rock.
...

Huh

Presumably the rock is not hungry.

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
I am simply asking what is the cause for any living organism to seek anything for itself as opposed to being inanimate or otherwise.
There are two forces at play here. A sense of self & a desire to keep the self alive.
Natural selection only shows a desire to keep the self alive. It's also a concept, not actual physical evidence. These guys are begging for evidence.

Let me simplify the question a bit:
I take it you are an adherent of cause and effect.

By the use of only empirical evidence:
What gene (body part) CAUSES a desire to keep the self in an aware state?
What gene (body part) CAUSES an organism to become self aware?
Is there any lifeless objects that seek to increase self preservation?
What caused reality to go from none self aware matter to self aware matter?

These are the most fundamental characteristics of life.
...

Ah! I think I see where you are going wrong.

You are thinking of 'life' as some kind of magical substance rather than a label that is applied to entities with certain characteristics.

It was this kind of baseless thinking that led Aquinas, Aristotle etc. to go erroneously down the 'soul' path.

Better to think of it as a continuum. Maybe this will help:

[Image: aw013.jpg]

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Failure to find such evidence does not detract from the fact that organisms are self aware and desire to stay alive.
...

Some are self-aware.

(15-03-2017 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Just like gravity, we have no evidence for it outside of it's its interaction with the physical world. Scientists gave the downward force known as gravity a name so why is it so wrong to give the force of self awareness a name?

It's a force? Since when?

I have no problem with giving the VM Application, known as self-awareness, a name.

You can call it a soul. I'll call it Self-Awareness.

Thumbsup
What is a self contained rock?
Let's not resort to Semantics please.

You said "Some are self-aware."
Show me an example of a none SELF aware organism.
10 bucks says you are going to show me something that has a system that converts energy to keep ITSELF alive. If it's not aware of itself the energy would go elsewhere. The system must always remain aware of itself for it to survive. For it to reach from Point A to Point B within the system it must be reachable within the system. if Point B is not reachable within the system but it is necessary for the system to work then the system fails.

This is my definition of life:
An unseen force that takes from the world around it, resulting in an increase state of information within a closed system.
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15-03-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 12:59 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:37 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I think you fail to comprehend my answers. Kim and JesseB have highlighted your error so no need for me to repeat.


So a self-contained rock is self-aware? A self-contained cell is self-aware?
Is that really your position?


Self-awareness is an entity's self-monitoring applications' monitoring system. See above regarding VM.


Huh

Presumably the rock is not hungry.


Ah! I think I see where you are going wrong.

You are thinking of 'life' as some kind of magical substance rather than a label that is applied to entities with certain characteristics.

It was this kind of baseless thinking that led Aquinas, Aristotle etc. to go erroneously down the 'soul' path.

Better to think of it as a continuum. Maybe this will help:

[Image: aw013.jpg]


Some are self-aware.


It's a force? Since when?

I have no problem with giving the VM Application, known as self-awareness, a name.

You can call it a soul. I'll call it Self-Awareness.

Thumbsup
This is my definition of life:
An unseen force that takes from the world around it, resulting in an increase state of information within a closed system.

The force
"It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." -Obi-wan Kanobi

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-03-2017, 01:06 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 12:59 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:37 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I think you fail to comprehend my answers. Kim and JesseB have highlighted your error so no need for me to repeat.


So a self-contained rock is self-aware? A self-contained cell is self-aware?
Is that really your position?


Self-awareness is an entity's self-monitoring applications' monitoring system. See above regarding VM.


Huh

Presumably the rock is not hungry.


Ah! I think I see where you are going wrong.

You are thinking of 'life' as some kind of magical substance rather than a label that is applied to entities with certain characteristics.

It was this kind of baseless thinking that led Aquinas, Aristotle etc. to go erroneously down the 'soul' path.

Better to think of it as a continuum. Maybe this will help:

[Image: aw013.jpg]


Some are self-aware.


It's a force? Since when?

I have no problem with giving the VM Application, known as self-awareness, a name.

You can call it a soul. I'll call it Self-Awareness.

Thumbsup
What is a self contained rock?
Let's not resort to Semantics please.

This is my definition of life:
An unseen force that takes from the world around it, resulting in an increase state of information within a closed system.

You're adding stuff to the equation that doesn't need to be there. That's the problem.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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