Brain vs soul.
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15-03-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 12:57 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I'm just giving this need, this driving force a name. A soul.

The soul is typically assigned any number of other attributes, including independence from the body and survival after death. To use the word in other ways is rather misleading, and could be construed as equivocating.

How can consciousness be continuous after life when it isn't even continuous during life?
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15-03-2017, 01:13 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 01:05 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:59 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This is my definition of life:
An unseen force that takes from the world around it, resulting in an increase state of information within a closed system.

The force
"It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." - Obi-wan Kanobi

Consider Nah, I disagree.

Pretty sure Yoda said that. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-03-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 01:13 PM)kim Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 01:05 PM)JesseB Wrote:  The force
"It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." - Obi-wan Kanobi

Consider Nah, I disagree.

Pretty sure Yoda said that. Shy

Episode 4 right about the time Luke meets Obi-wan and he first mentions the force he says this quote. I have all the movies on blue ray if you want me to find the time stamp (ah shit I just let my nerd slip out again didn't I)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-03-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 12:59 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What is a self contained rock?
Let's not resort to Semantics please.

Consider Would that make DLJ anti-Semantic?

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-03-2017, 01:21 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 01:17 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 01:13 PM)kim Wrote:  Consider Nah, I disagree.

Pretty sure Yoda said that. Shy

Episode 4 right about the time Luke meets Obi-wan and he first mentions the force he says this quote. I have all the movies on blue ray if you want me to find the time stamp (ah shit I just let my nerd slip out again didn't I)

I guess that description is a bit stripped down for Yoda.
I'm thinking more from "Empire...", of course. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-03-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 12:57 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
An unseen force that takes from the world around it to increase the state of information within a closed system.
...

If a system takes from the world around it, it is, by definition, an open system.

(15-03-2017 12:57 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
10 points for the first person to correctly guess where I'm going with this.

Narnia? Undecided

(15-03-2017 01:18 PM)kim Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:59 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What is a self contained rock?
Let's not resort to Semantics please.

Consider Would that make DLJ anti-Semantic?

I think it would.

But there is certainly a semantics problem here... starting with AS's grasp of the meaning of "awareness".

Anyway, 3:30am here. I'll let you guys try to edumacate him. I'll be back to mop up the blood and tears in a few hours.

Wink

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15-03-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 01:06 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:59 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What is a self contained rock?
Let's not resort to Semantics please.

This is my definition of life:
An unseen force that takes from the world around it, resulting in an increase state of information within a closed system.

You're adding stuff to the equation that doesn't need to be there. That's the problem.
Really? What did I add? I'm always careful to use words such as if, maybe, probably & could when describing unproven stuff. If you found an "IS" somewhere then it's most likely a philosophical argument about the logic within a claim.
That's not the problem however.
I'll tell you what the problem is:
Atheists have an issue with me describing life as an unseen force because it sounds too theological, too theistic.
I'm gonna coin the phrase Theophobia soon. I swear to Spaghetti Monster I will.
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15-03-2017, 01:40 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 01:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 01:06 PM)JesseB Wrote:  You're adding stuff to the equation that doesn't need to be there. That's the problem.
Really? What did I add? I'm always careful to use words such as if, maybe, probably & could when describing unproven stuff. If you found an "IS" somewhere then it's most likely a philosophical argument about the logic within a claim.
That's not the problem however.
I'll tell you what the problem is:
Atheists have an issue with me describing life as an unseen force because it sounds too theological, too theistic.
I'm gonna coin the phrase Theophobia soon. I swear to Spaghetti Monster I will.

Well... you've added 'Soul' to a system that doesn't need such a thing, for one.

I, for one, do not have a problem with you decribing things any way you like. Honest.

However, that you're still going on as if what you're describing is some how 'Real' is the weird thing.

Okay, so you state there's a 'Soul'.

I hope you'll humor me with a definition in a reply and I can thence reply to that etc.
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15-03-2017, 01:47 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 01:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 01:06 PM)JesseB Wrote:  You're adding stuff to the equation that doesn't need to be there. That's the problem.
Really? What did I add? I'm always careful to use words such as if, maybe, probably & could when describing unproven stuff. If you found an "IS" somewhere then it's most likely a philosophical argument about the logic within a claim.
That's not the problem however.
I'll tell you what the problem is:
Atheists have an issue with me describing life as an unseen force because it sounds too theological, too theistic.
I'm gonna coin the phrase Theophobia soon. I swear to Spaghetti Monster I will.

Incorrect, Atheists reject the claim that life is an unseen force because there is no evidence to justify the claim, and it directly opposes demonstrable testable reality.

It's totally ok for you to say "here's an idea I like, and I can't really justify it with anything" It's really not ok to say "I like the idea of a soul or life force (as you defined it) therefor they exist. and you shouldn't oppose it because it sounds like a theistic position.

There is no phobia in it. I'm just calling you out on things that appear to be factually incorrect.

To be clear what I'm telling you is there's no such thing as a "life force" and your attempt to bridge reality to justify your usage of the term goes against everything we know about biology, and philosophy/psychology.

As far as I can see you're trying to shove a square peg in a round hole. I'm just correcting this.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-03-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Brain vs soul.
(15-03-2017 01:33 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:57 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
An unseen force that takes from the world around it to increase the state of information within a closed system.
...

If a system takes from the world around it, it is, by definition, an open system.

(15-03-2017 12:57 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
10 points for the first person to correctly guess where I'm going with this.

Narnia? Undecided

(15-03-2017 01:18 PM)kim Wrote:  Consider Would that make DLJ anti-Semantic?

I think it would.

But there is certainly a semantics problem here... starting with AS's grasp of the meaning of "awareness".

Anyway, 3:30am here. I'll let you guys try to edumacate him. I'll be back to mop up the blood and tears in a few hours.

Wink
[/quote]
I'll take my correction on closed system. Smile
It should have read open system.

Hey Mom... thought you said I can't take corrections? Thumbsup

Concerning awareness. I speak of it in very materialistic terms because it becomes a logical paradox if you refer to awareness as defined.

Dictionary.com
Awareness = Consciousness
Consciousness = Self Awareness
Paradox

I prefer to think of it as
Awareness = Having the ability to receive information
Self = A unique observer (not necessarily physical)
Self Awareness = A unique observer capable of receiving information

Therefore everything is aware, but not everything is self aware.

A Soul is then simply the identity of a self aware being.
ie. A being capable of thought.
I'm not adding to this. I haven't added to this in any way throughout this entire thread. Who knows if it's material or not. The fact remains identities exist and we haven't seen what it looks like.

If tomorrow scientists find the "Identity" cell and learn to transplant it in a rock then so be it. The rock get's a soul, but the rock isn't the soul.
If we die & still keep our identity then that's a soul.

If you take offense to your identity being classified as a Soul then I pity you because that's the name english speaking humans commonly use to describe it.
Either way a Soul is needed if we are to believe in the self.
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