Breaking the Moral Contract
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30-08-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
(29-08-2012 12:15 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Let's start with the following question:
What is cheating in a relationship?
Why do we have such a concept?

The idea that one individual owns the exclusive right to have sex with another individual is perverse. Every individual owns their own self. If a person wants to own the sex right to me I will tell them that this is my right exclusively. If at any time I choose to have sex with another individual it is my call. If I choose not to have sex with someone other than my wife, that is my call, not hers. She does not own me. I do not own her.

The concept comes from individuals who are insecure in their own person. They feel the need to control others, such as a sex partner. We make this a binding arrangement in the religious world. "Let no man break apart...."

To answer the original question, you should mind your own business. If there is an agreement between two other individuals regarding acts of sexual intercourse, it is not your concern. You are not the moral police, given that an agreement to exclusive sex rights is a moral issue at all. I don't believe that it is.

It's also about promise keeping and promise breaking.

If you make a deal with someone about fidelity, then breaking the deal is an unethical act.

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30-08-2012, 12:22 PM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
I disagree with the Hitler analogy.

If you wouldnt normally do things you consider "immoral"...... then why would you then do them to somebody else??? Using a justification to do so is exactly what the bad person would of done when they commited the "deed" you are judging them over.

You are replicating their behaviour but living by your own rules.

Life is so hipocritical lol Cool

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30-08-2012, 12:38 PM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
(29-08-2012 12:15 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The idea that one individual owns the exclusive right to have sex with another individual is perverse. Every individual owns their own self. If a person wants to own the sex right to me I will tell them that this is my right exclusively. If at any time I choose to have sex with another individual it is my call. If I choose not to have sex with someone other than my wife, that is my call, not hers. She does not own me. I do not own her.

If you are in a committed relationship, you are promising you won't be fooling around. If you can't keep your promise, don't get into a relationship.

(29-08-2012 12:15 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The concept comes from individuals who are insecure in their own person. They feel the need to control others, such as a sex partner. We make this a binding arrangement in the religious world. "Let no man break apart...."

The idea is that the two make a mutual agreement.

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30-08-2012, 12:45 PM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
(30-08-2012 12:38 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(29-08-2012 12:15 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The idea that one individual owns the exclusive right to have sex with another individual is perverse. Every individual owns their own self. If a person wants to own the sex right to me I will tell them that this is my right exclusively. If at any time I choose to have sex with another individual it is my call. If I choose not to have sex with someone other than my wife, that is my call, not hers. She does not own me. I do not own her.

If you are in a committed relationship, you are promising you won't be fooling around. If you can't keep your promise, don't get into a relationship.

(29-08-2012 12:15 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The concept comes from individuals who are insecure in their own person. They feel the need to control others, such as a sex partner. We make this a binding arrangement in the religious world. "Let no man break apart...."

The idea is that the two make a mutual agreement.

Re. a girl and her boyfriend - none of your damn business. Why do people always have to stick their noses into other people's affairs? Not enough going on in your own life?

It's between the two of them, they know what they expect from each other. You don't. And even if you did, it would still be none of your biz.

Now if the boyfriend was your brother or best friend or something, you might feel sufficiently protective towards him to tell him about it. But the friend of a friend.... nope.

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30-08-2012, 01:02 PM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
(30-08-2012 12:45 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 12:38 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If you are in a committed relationship, you are promising you won't be fooling around. If you can't keep your promise, don't get into a relationship.


The idea is that the two make a mutual agreement.

Re. a girl and her boyfriend - none of your damn business. Why do people always have to stick their noses into other people's affairs? Not enough going on in your own life?

It's between the two of them, they know what they expect from each other. You don't. And even if you did, it would still be none of your biz.

Now if the boyfriend was your brother or best friend or something, you might feel sufficiently protective towards him to tell him about it. But the friend of a friend.... nope.

What the fuck are you talking about? I wasn't saying it was okay to interfere.

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30-08-2012, 08:36 PM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
(27-08-2012 04:25 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  I was with a friend one night when a topic was brought up about some friends that she knew. She mentioned that her friend was cheating on her boyfriend. I asked if she was going to intervene or tell the boyfriend. She simply said that she had no right to be in the girlfriend's business.

In this situation the moral code of trust or privacy is being respected by my friend. My issue with it is, once someone has violated a moral code, why should their moral code be respected? And why should you uphold your moral bond as friends expecting the same result?

Aside from what is objective or subjective, if you view the action as wrong, then why should you respect any morality that you would consider lesser than it? Assuming you can place your morality in a hierarchy type of fashion from high to low importance.

I may be talking out my ass at the moment, and I could probably find a better way to word this, but I am tired, sick, and bored. Ask if anyone need further elaboration, and please discuss.

I think you're starting off on the wrong footing here. The "moral contract" that you're referring to doesn't really exist. This is why dogmatic religions, organizations, governments, etc. that attempt to enforce a concrete moral code often have ghastly consequences (Nazi's genocide of the Jews, religious fundamentalists disrespecting and infringing upon other's rights daily, cults committing mass suicide, constantly punishing innocent people for crimes they didn't commit, etc.). When anyone thinks and acts according to the idea that they not only know what's right, but know how the punishment should be distributed, negative things are likely to ensue.

In order to counteract this sort of eye for an eye, strict morality, we should start with the basic axiom that it's generally wrong to do bad things to others (aka the golden rule) because we wouldn't want them done to us. Beyond that, I think people are generally on their own. To say that your friend's friend has somehow breached a contract and lost their rights to be treated like you'd want to be treated is silly to me. People learn by making mistakes, and if every mistake we make we are open to a punishment free for all, the whole point of the moral contract initially entered into (which I would assume is to maximize the wellbeing of all people at all times) falls on its face.

For the situation you described, it seems to me that people are getting it right--it's not your business, and you were right to stay out of it. However, to now say that it's ok for anyone and everyone she dates to cheat on her seems just as immoral, if not more so, than the initial infraction to me, because you break the only axiom that I see a situational ethics feasibly being based on. The notion that people need to be punished for immoral actions is outdated. We now know from psychology that people learn much better from positive reinforcement, rather than punishment. This is obvious when we think of say, training a dog. Do you think since the dog didn't sit when you tell it, it breaches a moral contract between you and the dog and it's now ok to punish the dog for some amount of time? I hope not, because your dog probably wouldn't learn in this hypothetical situation. Instead of punishment, the ideal to me is to attempt to teach and enlighten. For your friend's friend, for instance, it would seem that she either doesn't know or doesn't care about the consequences of her actions on her relationship, assuming there are any. You didn't mention if you knew any other details of the relationship. Are they an open couple? Has he cheated on her in the past? Is he an individual who would get upset hearing that his girlfriend was with someone else? Maybe to her it's not that big of a deal, and she wouldn't mind being cheated on, either.

As far respecting other people's moral codes, I think it's best to assume that we can't really know what other people's moral codes are. For instance, you can have a devout priest or preacher who obviously has a moral code he would claim to live by, and this same person could be molesting children. Does this mean it's ok to now molest his children? Or is it now ok to disregard his moral code (The Bible)? No. All I can conclude from that hypothetical would be that the priest has committed what I consider to be an immoral act, and should not be allowed to be around children, and likely needs some psychological help. Obviously, the law and I disagree here, and I'm not defending child molestation, but what does putting that individual in a box for x number of years teach them about why their actions were wrong? To walk around assuming you're making strict contracts with every person you meet is not only absurd to me, but seems dangerous for you since you will probably be disappointed more often than not.

People cheat. People steal. People disrespect other people. This seems to be inherent in human nature and human interaction. The best route, in my opinion, seems to be to ensure that I, having control over my own actions, should be responsible for ensuring I treat others as well as I'd like to be treated, and explain to anyone who doesn't treat me with this same basic level of respect why I don't appreciate their actions. If they can't see eye to eye, there's no reason to continue the relationship, but as long as no serious harm has been done, I see no reason to punish the other person at a level equal to their douchiness or not.
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30-08-2012, 10:44 PM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
Maybe this makes some sense, or not?

You have two friends who start dating. They come to you and ask if you would agree to watch the both of them to deter them from cheating on each other with other sex partners.

Would you agree to get involved, even if asked?

I think the bigger problem is the exclusive sex partner idea that society presses onto us framed as morality. Who decided that it was immoral to have recreational sex with a friend? Why is this wrong? Because feelings get hurt?

Possessiveness is a leading cause of spousal abuse.

Can we get over this insecurity as a species?

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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31-08-2012, 07:52 AM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
(30-08-2012 10:44 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Maybe this makes some sense, or not?

You have two friends who start dating. They come to you and ask if you would agree to watch the both of them to deter them from cheating on each other with other sex partners.

Would you agree to get involved, even if asked?

I think the bigger problem is the exclusive sex partner idea that society presses onto us framed as morality. Who decided that it was immoral to have recreational sex with a friend? Why is this wrong? Because feelings get hurt?

Possessiveness is a leading cause of spousal abuse.

Can we get over this insecurity as a species?

No one says you have to get married. If you feel that you don't need or don't want to do so, then don't do so.

If you want to marry, then go ahead. This is not a black and white situation.

As for interfering in someone else's relationship, don't do it. You are asking for a whole bunch of trouble.

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31-08-2012, 11:42 AM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
(31-08-2012 07:52 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 10:44 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Maybe this makes some sense, or not?

You have two friends who start dating. They come to you and ask if you would agree to watch the both of them to deter them from cheating on each other with other sex partners.

Would you agree to get involved, even if asked?

I think the bigger problem is the exclusive sex partner idea that society presses onto us framed as morality. Who decided that it was immoral to have recreational sex with a friend? Why is this wrong? Because feelings get hurt?

Possessiveness is a leading cause of spousal abuse.

Can we get over this insecurity as a species?

No one says you have to get married. If you feel that you don't need or don't want to do so, then don't do so.

If you want to marry, then go ahead. This is not a black and white situation.

As for interfering in someone else's relationship, don't do it. You are asking for a whole bunch of trouble.

May I add, Marriage is just a formalization of a religious concept of morality. Secular people should make their own minds what these things mean to them. I think sometimes we carry these moral hangovers with us. Sex is a natural thing to do. Sex with a single partner for life is not. It's not just anything goes, but rather what is the most natural and harmonious way to live. These are things we discover about ourselves.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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31-08-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: Breaking the Moral Contract
(30-08-2012 01:02 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 12:45 PM)Dom Wrote:  Re. a girl and her boyfriend - none of your damn business. Why do people always have to stick their noses into other people's affairs? Not enough going on in your own life?

It's between the two of them, they know what they expect from each other. You don't. And even if you did, it would still be none of your biz.

Now if the boyfriend was your brother or best friend or something, you might feel sufficiently protective towards him to tell him about it. But the friend of a friend.... nope.

What the fuck are you talking about? I wasn't saying it was okay to interfere.

Oops, sorry, I should not have replied to you but started a new reply, I didn't mean to reply to you in person. Sorry.

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