British Soldier Beheaded in Street
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25-05-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
(25-05-2013 05:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 04:51 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I don't know. I don't know the statistics on such things. Gun use/ownership is a lifelong hobby of mine. When I'm tending to my rifle or my shotguns, I'm not thinking about shooting up a school. I'm not thinking about how many people do shoot up schools and political rallies with the very types of guns that I'm holding. I'm merely thinking about how lovely the steel shines as I polish it and admiring its aesthetic and practical features - just as a coin collector smiles upon his collection of early 20th century pennies. When I, a sound-minded individual, am holding my guns, nothing bad is happening. That is all that is relevant to me. And quite frankly, I believe it would be terribly unfair to take away something that I am mentally capable of enjoying safely because a few dipshits might not be able to handle it themselves.

And in the end, that's what certain freedoms - or even privileges - are about. A person being free to enjoy himself because he's capable of doing so without hurting anyone. All I ask, as an individual, is that we don't go bug-nutty and start taking away my personal enjoyments because a few less-than-stable characters on the other side of my country can't handle their shit. That's not fair to me; I have done nothing wrong.

And we could use the identical argument for 'religion control'. Because there are people who use religion for mass murder, we should ban it.

Yup. Works for me.

I suppose that comes down to personal biases and such.

Then again, certain religions directly command the hatred and/or harm of others. A firearm is merely a way to throw a projectile. It doesn't demand harm to anyone. I can shoot an iron target just as easily as I can shoot a person.

Ask any jihadist, though, and you'll find they're kind of required to blow up a person, rather than an iron target. A gun's use is relative. "Slaughter the infidels" is pretty specific in its purpose.

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25-05-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
(25-05-2013 04:51 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 04:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Is gun ownership a net positive to society or a net negative? That is really what it boils down to. After all the personal attacks and emotional arguments do you think we are better off as a society having guns? Personally I think the risks and the costs far outweigh the benefits.

I don't know. I don't know the statistics on such things. Gun use/ownership is a lifelong hobby of mine. When I'm tending to my rifle or my shotguns, I'm not thinking about shooting up a school. I'm not thinking about how many people do shoot up schools and political rallies with the very types of guns that I'm holding. I'm merely thinking about how lovely the steel shines as I polish it and admiring its aesthetic and practical features - just as a coin collector smiles upon his collection of early 20th century pennies. When I, a sound-minded individual, am holding my guns, nothing bad is happening. That is all that is relevant to me. And quite frankly, I believe it would be terribly unfair to take away something that I am mentally capable of enjoying safely because a few dipshits might not be able to handle it themselves.

And in the end, that's what certain freedoms - or even privileges - are about. A person being free to enjoy himself because he's capable of doing so without hurting anyone. All I ask, as an individual, is that we don't go bug-nutty and start taking away my personal enjoyments because a few less-than-stable characters on the other side of my country can't handle their shit. That's not fair to me; I have done nothing wrong.

I get your point and this is why this issue more than any others has me at odds with myself. I like freedom and dislike being told what to do. However I also think one of the few things governments should do is protect it's citizens. Thus my 2 main political motivators are at odds on this one. I've been to gun ranges before and fired weapons, I know tons of people who hunt. I don't know anyone who has ever killed another person with a gun but I do know that if we were to remove guns from the equation the number of deaths per year would go down nationally. So which is more important? As I said earlier I just think the costs and risks outweigh the benefits but I could be wrong.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-05-2013, 05:20 PM
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
(25-05-2013 05:11 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 04:51 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I don't know. I don't know the statistics on such things. Gun use/ownership is a lifelong hobby of mine. When I'm tending to my rifle or my shotguns, I'm not thinking about shooting up a school. I'm not thinking about how many people do shoot up schools and political rallies with the very types of guns that I'm holding. I'm merely thinking about how lovely the steel shines as I polish it and admiring its aesthetic and practical features - just as a coin collector smiles upon his collection of early 20th century pennies. When I, a sound-minded individual, am holding my guns, nothing bad is happening. That is all that is relevant to me. And quite frankly, I believe it would be terribly unfair to take away something that I am mentally capable of enjoying safely because a few dipshits might not be able to handle it themselves.

And in the end, that's what certain freedoms - or even privileges - are about. A person being free to enjoy himself because he's capable of doing so without hurting anyone. All I ask, as an individual, is that we don't go bug-nutty and start taking away my personal enjoyments because a few less-than-stable characters on the other side of my country can't handle their shit. That's not fair to me; I have done nothing wrong.

I get your point and this is why this issue more than any others has me at odds with myself. I like freedom and dislike being told what to do. However I also think one of the few things governments should do is protect it's citizens. Thus my 2 main political motivators are at odds on this one. I've been to gun ranges before and fired weapons, I know tons of people who hunt. I don't know anyone who has ever killed another person with a gun but I do know that if we were to remove guns from the equation the number of deaths per year would go down nationally. So which is more important? As I said earlier I just think the costs and risks outweigh the benefits but I could be wrong.

On a nation-wide scale, the numbers may go down, sure. And that's groovy for our overall population. However, the number of deaths would have gone up the other night when a bear stampeded through my yard as I was letting my puppies shit in the grass. Then I and my puppies would be dead and my Peanut would be without her Miso.

I don't speak for an overall population. Perhaps a bit selfishly, I don't even really care about an overall population. I care about me, and those I love. And in my subjective experience, guns have not only been a source of enjoyment for my personal population, but they've been a "net positive" force in its well-being, too.

That alone is good enough for me. The rest of the country can do what it wants. I'm keeping my guns.

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25-05-2013, 08:02 PM
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
(25-05-2013 03:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, there is a correlation. There have been no mass shootings since 1997.
There are still guns in Scotland, there are still gun deaths in Scotland.

A fraction of a fraction of the number in the states. The benefits of removing guns is massive. The benefits of keeping them are minimal and largly seem to be based in paranoia.

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25-05-2013, 09:46 PM
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
(25-05-2013 08:02 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 03:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, there is a correlation. There have been no mass shootings since 1997.
There are still guns in Scotland, there are still gun deaths in Scotland.

A fraction of a fraction of the number in the states. The benefits of removing guns is massive. The benefits of keeping them are minimal and largly seem to be based in paranoia.

Try selling that bullshit to Lee Rigby's family, friends, and mates.

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25-05-2013, 10:04 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2013 11:39 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
(23-05-2013 05:20 PM)bemore Wrote:  Its true, our armies do kill thousands of innocents all the time. I imagine all the shock, pain and grief my country is pretending to go through right now is nothing in comparison to all the innocent people caught up in wars with occupying armies with the most up to date weapons known to man on their doorstep.

Doesn't justify what they did though, if they wanted they could of quite easily beheaded a manequin in the street and ranted on like they did but I very much doubt it would of got the media airtime that killing a human has.

"Islam. Truly a religion of peace.Drinking Beverage"

Its your opinion Mis and I would never take that away from you.... but blanket statements like that of muslims in western cultures is similar to Egor's views on atheists, it works both ways.

Normal people no matter what religion don't go around killing people, psycho people go around killing people and use religion (amongst other things) as simple justification.

Islam is a religion. Religion in general is bad.

Not all religious followers are insane, but they can be lead to insanity rather easily by religious ideals, and leaders. Nothing is more terrible than those who value the after life, and divine justice more than the laws of their countries and the lives of their fellow citizens. Those who find such things disgusting typically deconvert, if they analyze their religions too closely and have good moral characters.

All of these faiths have had, and continue to have times where their texts are used for violence. This is one of those times.

However to pretend that Christianity, Islam, or Judaism aren't dripping with blood is to trade one delusion for another.

Here is a full transcript of what one of the killers said.
The reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers.

And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting until you leave us alone.

So what if we want to live by the Sharia in Muslim lands? Why does that means you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us.

Rather you lot are extreme. You are the ones that when you drop a bomb you think it hits one person?

Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family?

That is the reality. By Allah if I saw your mother today with a buggy I would help her up their stairs. This is my nature.

We are forced by (inaudible Arabic) through many passages in the Koran we must fight them as they fight us.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same.

You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you.

You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our gun, you think politicians are going to die? No it’s going to be the average guy, like you and your children.

So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so we can all live in peace.

So leave our lands and we can all live in peace, that’s all I have to say.

Allah’s peace and blessings be upon you.

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25-05-2013, 10:08 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2013 10:13 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
The Qur'an mentions the "eye for an eye" concept as being ordained for the Children of Israel. The principle of Lex talionis in Islam is Qasas (قصاص) as mentioned in (Qur'an 2:178) "O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution (Qasas) for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.". Some Muslim nations, still apply the rule, in accordance with the Mosaic Law. In some countries that use Islamic law (sharia), the "eye for an eye" rule is applied quite literally.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may...ran-outcry
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7754756.stm

Quran 5.45
And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?...5&verse=45

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26-05-2013, 07:15 AM
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
(25-05-2013 09:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  Try selling that bullshit to Lee Rigby's family, friends, and mates.

Ill bet they are as anti gun as the majority of the British public, remember it was public opinion that led to the gun ban. We dont want anymore massacres you lot in the states dont seem phased by them. Its disturbing how much so. Some one shoots up a school its WE NEED MORE GUNS, usng the same logic that throwing kerosine at a fire is a good way to put it out Dodgy

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26-05-2013, 07:23 AM
RE: British Soldier Beheaded in Street
(26-05-2013 07:15 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 09:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  Try selling that bullshit to Lee Rigby's family, friends, and mates.

Ill bet they are as anti gun as the majority of the British public, remember it was public opinion that led to the gun ban. We dont want anymore massacres you lot in the states dont seem phased by them. Its disturbing how much so. Some one shoots up a school its WE NEED MORE GUNS, usng the same logic that throwing kerosine at a fire is a good way to put it out Dodgy

No, no no! Scot, you have it all wrong!

It's more like using the kerosene to start a fire next to the first fire in hopes of depriving the first one of oxygen.

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