Brown People Redux
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13-02-2011, 10:01 AM
Brown People Redux
Hey, erbody.

It has always sucked to be a brown person in this world. Your chances of being enslaved, conquered, made second class citizens, being dominated economically, suffering cultural genocide and killed are much higher than most.

I think that there is a link between being brown and the amount of religious intolerance that is being broadcast from North America and Europe. Even if there isn't, there's some straight up BS happening to some religious folks.

The Quebec legislature just banned the Kirpan, the Sikh ceremonial dagger worn against the skin at all times, from the assembly. It's part of the "reasonable accomodation" debate going on in Quebec, ie, how much foreign crap do we put up with.

Sounds like it might be reasonable, eh? Ban knives. Makes sense. Until you realise that Sikhs have been wearing the Kirpan at the provincial and federal level for years. Then you gotta look at the Scots.

Scottish people helped build the country and are a huge part of Quebec. Scots have long been a part of the Quebec government. Scots, when wearing kilts, have two different kinds of ceremonial daggers: the small sgian-dubh worn in the hose and the much larger foot-long dirk that comes with it's own knife and fork set.

But the new law, it should be noted, did not ban all ceremonial knives. It banned the Kirpan.

So one of two things or both is happening here.
1 - The Kirpan was banned because of religious intollerance.
2 - The Kirpan was banned because of a long history of brown people intollerance.

Either way, there's some BS goin on here.

I wonder if in future, we will look back at this time and view our treatment of Arabs and Sikhs (who have really been caught up in anti-Arab sentiment by people who can't differentiate the two) and view it in the same vein as the treatment of Jews in Europe in the 30's or the internment of Italians and Japanese.

Anyhoo, that's more of a rant than a question, so how about I offer this up for debate?

Quebec will refuse all government services, including education and non-emergency health care, to veiled Muslim women wearing the niqab and have banned religious teaching of all kinds at publically funded daycares. France recently banned the burqa. An Arizona town banned home bible study and Oklahoma outlawed Sharia.

Do you feel that religious groups are being discriminated against or no and if yes, do you think that it's reasonable or unreasonable or fair or unfair?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-02-2011, 10:25 AM
RE: Brown People Redux
I'm not sure if you realize this, but I think you're asking about 5 distinct questions here. Below I try to give a general answer, though, which I hope covers some of this.

I do think there is a post-9/11 prejudice against anyone perceived to be from the Arab part of the world. There was a prejudice prior to 9/11 but it has clearly gotten worse. I'm not convinced it is about color, but color certainly plays a role here as it is the distinguishing characteristic for most North Americans and Europeans, and specifically the majority white citizens. As a rule, we don't know the difference between Arabs, Persians, Indians, etc. I've even seen the far east Muslim countries referred to as "Arab" countries when they are populated by ethnic Chinese, Malays, etc. and are a few thousand miles from Arabia. There is definitely a bias here which I think stems mostly from ignorance, especially in north America. The US and Canada are both very isolated from the rest of the world. The US has 2 neighbors and Canada has 1. We have huge oceans buffering us from the rest of the world and our citizens know very little about people from other places as a result. I think ignorance more than prejudice is what causes a great deal of what you're seeing.

As for the specifics, I think some of this is people pandering to fears. The Sharia thing in Oklahoma was fear mongering at its worst. It had no basis in reality and was done just to scare people towards a certain political party, basically daring someone to stand up to it.

Sikhs have been caught up in the general hysteria, and I think that is largely due to ignorance. Asking them to remove their ceremonial daggers is absurd.

I had not heard about the banning of home bible study and will have to look for that. I can't see how that is not a violation of the First Amendment, though.

We had an entire thread here on the burqa and France and, generally, I was not that bothered by it. But, I don't see that as an anti-Muslim action but more as a pro-women rights action.

Anyway, I think there are a lot of things going on here, some based on prejudice, some on fear, some on ignorance. Tough to boil it all down to one argument or explanation when there are several motivations in play.

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13-02-2011, 01:38 PM
RE: Brown People Redux
Unfortunately, the whole brown people issue is carrying strong. But yes, a large sweeping form of religious intolerance is due more to North Americans' lack of understanding than the "not white" principle.

As far as Gilbert, Arizona it would appear that they had one of those odd town charter laws on the books and someone found it. The suggestion there seemed completely unconstitutional and did not stick.

And to BnW, if banning ceremonial daggers is absurd what makes the Burqa still in question? Ive known many Islamic women in colleges who are quite independent in every day life, and take to their practices more at home. Ceremonial garments are part of religious practices if they really want to ban the Burqa why not discuss that it hides the face in the event of something happening and discuss it as a safety thing. A large part of the anti-women Arabic stances have to do with areas rulings, when they move to other countries those things change. In general whether or not an Islamic woman wears a Burqa if she lives in North America her husband will be tried for violence, in the event that he abuses her. There are some cases of fairly Muslim communities where the jury deemed it part of religious practices to abuse partners. But, in general people on this continent won't stand idly by and allow practices they deem unlawful to be excused via religion.

And yes, there's a lot more than a finite argument here which means nothing can be explained in one fell swoop.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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13-02-2011, 03:17 PM
RE: Brown People Redux
I agree with BnW.
Ignorance leads to discrimination.
I can't believe Bible study was banned in the home - that doesn't make sense , but if it was it's unconstitutional and someone should sue.
The fact the Sharia law was banned is pitiful as it only shows fear mongering , and if asked about the 10 commandments I think people would enforce them.
As for ritual daggers being banned - kind of a dumb idea , considering anything is a potential weapon even a cane - so that's just mass hysteria.
Lilith - don't agree.The burka issue is not up for debate as far as I'm concerned.Most muslim women aren't given a choice, they are forced to wear the burka in public and nobody tells them that in western countries they don't have to.If it's a choice it's one thing , if it's not then it's a violation of human rights, women rights to be more specific.

Last , Ghost , although discrimination isn't exclusive to non-whites, ask the same bigots how they view gay white people and see what they respond.

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

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13-02-2011, 04:56 PM
RE: Brown People Redux
I find it hard to take any of this seriously because white people form only 6% of the total population of the planet. The rest are either "brown" or "yellow". Obviously 94% of the world has a bigger chance of being discriminated against than 6%, it's simple numbers. Though in all honesty; brown people don't often get ritually murdered by white governments such as white people are by brown governments.

And the stuff about religion intolerance has been debated, closed and debated again more times than I can remember.

Also; I have to carry papers around so that I don't get arrested for the walking stick I have to use for my bad leg. Carrying a knife around just because your religion says so isn't good enough.

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14-02-2011, 02:19 AM
RE: Brown People Redux
Well this is an interesting issue, discrimination to brown skinned people like me Big Grin, me and my family look like arab people, I probably have some arab blood in my veins because my mother's family is from the state of Guadalajara, even the name "Guadalajara" is arab because that state was populated by arab inmigrants long time ago.

For example my mom lived 3 years in France because she got her PhD there, and she suffered from discrimination back there, even some french people looked at her and said "filthy arab..." and things like that. I have family in the US but unfortunately I havent visited them since 9/11, I dont want to be framed as arab terrorist in the airport, even here in Mexico when I travel, the airport personel look at me in a suspicious way hehe.

I dont know if color discrimination come from the bible for example, If so I would be grateful if someone couls clarify this to me, but anyway I think its dumb and twisted to judge people by his/her skin color. No one chooses their race and birth place.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
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14-02-2011, 09:46 AM
RE: Brown People Redux
Hey, BnW.

Thanks for a well-thought out response.

Quote:I do think there is a post-9/11 prejudice against anyone perceived to be from the Arab part of the world. There was a prejudice prior to 9/11 but it has clearly gotten worse.

I remember when the Washington/Willis film "The Siege" came out in 98' that there was a huge backlash against painting Arabs as terrorists. That indignation doesn't seem to exist anymore.

I think you're right. It's a fear thing (not to ignore multiple determinates). I mean, you don't have to be an Orwell scholar to know the importance of fear. I like what Orwell himself said:

Quote: The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact.

Hey, Lilith Pride.

Quote:Ceremonial garments are part of religious practices if they really want to ban the Burqa why not discuss that it hides the face in the event of something happening and discuss it as a safety thing.

Is there evidence of that or is it a cover?

I ask because there was a report today about Canadian MP Steven Blaney tabling a private members bill to ban veiled voting. But:
Quote:When he introduced the bill, Blaney had no data to suggest that face covering was actually a problem for Elections Canada staff. The agency reported that no one failed to comply with requests to identify themselves during the 2008 vote.
-SOURCE

Quote:A large part of the anti-women Arabic stances have to do with areas rulings, when they move to other countries those things change. In general whether or not an Islamic woman wears a Burqa if she lives in North America her husband will be tried for violence, in the event that he abuses her. There are some cases of fairly Muslim communities where the jury deemed it part of religious practices to abuse partners. But, in general people on this continent won't stand idly by and allow practices they deem unlawful to be excused via religion.

I thought I understood this one way, but then I realised I was wrong. Would you be willing to clarify what you mean for me?

Hey, galgamesh731.

Quote:Most muslim women aren't given a choice, they are forced to wear the burka in public and nobody tells them that in western countries they don't have to.If it's a choice it's one thing , if it's not then it's a violation of human rights, women rights to be more specific.

Mst of the challenges (from what I gather, someone correct me if I'm wrong) to any laws curtailing or banning coverings are coming from Muslim women. So if women, in the face of these bannings, are saying, "we don't want your help, we've chosen to wear these garments," what do these bans accomplish? If they're forced to wear them or forced not to wear them, either way, it's a violation of women's rights.

Hey, Cetaceaphile.

Quote:Though in all honesty; brown people don't often get ritually murdered by white governments such as white people are by brown governments.

What in God's name are you talking about?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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14-02-2011, 09:57 AM
RE: Brown People Redux
Arabic and African governments especially are well known for either ignoring or directly initiating the murder of white tourists and immigrants.

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14-02-2011, 10:08 AM
RE: Brown People Redux
Quote:Well this is an interesting issue, discrimination to brown skinned people like me Big Grin, me and my family look like arab people,
Sorry to hear that - sadly some promote racial profiling so unless you match the ideals of Josef Mengele you will be discriminated against.Seriously , what's so great about being white, we have worse teeth , we get sunburned easier and we are more prone to dementia ... oh , so that's why we discriminate.
On a side note , don't worry , anything arab like is discriminated against.A while back I read Metallica's lead singer , Jame Hetfield was having problems in airports due to his goatee.

Quote:Mst of the challenges (from what I gather, someone correct me if I'm wrong) to any laws curtailing or banning coverings are coming from Muslim women. So if women, in the face of these bannings, are saying, "we don't want your help, we've chosen to wear these garments," what do these bans accomplish? If they're forced to wear them or forced not to wear them, either way, it's a violation of women's rights.

Can you prove these women KNOW they aren't obligated in ANY way by the law of the land to wear a burka ? Can you prove they aren't coerced by their community ?
I consider it demeaning to force a woman to cover her face , it makes me ashamed to be a man.All monotheistic religions put women less to men , and in some cultures women are never told that the western world , or at least it sane members , view the genders as equal before society and the law.

Here's a nice and powerful message :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkvyUtLJmaw

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

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14-02-2011, 12:08 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2011 12:21 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Brown People Redux
(14-02-2011 09:46 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Lilith Pride.

Quote:Ceremonial garments are part of religious practices if they really want to ban the Burqa why not discuss that it hides the face in the event of something happening and discuss it as a safety thing.

Is there evidence of that or is it a cover?

Quote:A large part of the anti-women Arabic stances have to do with areas rulings, when they move to other countries those things change. In general whether or not an Islamic woman wears a Burqa if she lives in North America her husband will be tried for violence, in the event that he abuses her. There are some cases of fairly Muslim communities where the jury deemed it part of religious practices to abuse partners. But, in general people on this continent won't stand idly by and allow practices they deem unlawful to be excused via religion.

I thought I understood this one way, but then I realised I was wrong. Would you be willing to clarify what you mean for me?

Ok Ghost, on the idea of Burqa's being a safety hazard it is a personal view of a good way to state this argument. Due to religious freedoms, Islamic women can wear Burqa in settings where all others must remove garments that can potentially hide their faces. I don't know of any cases for this, but it would be right to suggest that the Burqa allows for anonymity in times when that might not be regularly available. As long as the focus is on Islamic women's freedoms, they are free to dissent from this argument stating it is for their religion. You can't exactly win an argument by saying it's for someone who doesn't want it. There are restrictions to what doctors can do without consent. That it sounds good is not often viewed as a reason to remove someone's personal freedom.

As far as sovereignty laws, many of the worst things about Muslim traditions are more about countries than about the Qu'ran. When Muslims move to new countries they cannot simply state that they bring with them diplomatic immunity, if they are to become citizens.
-In the US there is an issue with multiple wives, though unions outside of the US are accepted, (I don't have an issue with polygamy, but this country currently does) an Islamic US citizen cannot marry more than one woman within US soil.
-Murder in all forms is wrong (though there have been a few cases of Islamic men avoiding conviction due to Islamic peers on the jury). In the US, people are generally arrested and imprisoned no matter what reason they give for murder. So, Islamic men cannot murder their wives without being tried.
-Abuse in the home is also agressively tried. In the case of Abuse in the home the defendant does not need to be the one filing the suit. So, in any case where an Islamic family practices abuse within their home, public awareness can turn it into a rights violation.

The Qu'ran does not negate the constitution and it's amendments. While there will always be those who choose to ignore womens' rights and the rights of family members. It will not be something knowingly allowed within this country. Remember that whether a person chooses to follow their country's rights or their religion's views first. Being a citizen of a country makes them lawfully bound to uphold the country's standards.

And to Gaglamesh's latest post, you concider it demeaning to force a woman to cover her face. However, you do not concider it demeaning to force a woman not to cover her face? This would be a logical fallacy from my view. In accepting citizenship a person agrees to their understanding of the country's laws and practices. Even if this is circumvented for older women coming from foreign country's with foreign ideals, the children who are introduced to our school systems have no choice but to learn. Women over the age of 18 are allowed to make any personal decisions they like, no matter how poor others may view them within the constructs of the law.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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