Bucky and freewill
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18-10-2014, 06:29 PM
Bucky and freewill
Turns out freewill is ours after all.

http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/neuroscienc...-free-will

Bucky, were you one of the supporters of the research that said the subconscious chose for us before we could consciously make the choice? I think Michio Kaku and Lawrence Krauss were behind that way of thinking, too.

Just curious if this will change anything in your freewill discussions. I always disagreed with that research, but didn't really care enough to get a degree and start my own research. Dodgy

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18-10-2014, 06:41 PM
RE: Bucky and freewill
(18-10-2014 06:29 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Turns out freewill is ours after all.

http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/neuroscienc...-free-will

Bucky, were you one of the supporters of the research that said the subconscious chose for us before we could consciously make the choice? I think Michio Kaku and Lawrence Krauss were behind that way of thinking, too.

Just curious if this will change anything in your freewill discussions. I always disagreed with that research, but didn't really care enough to get a degree and start my own research. Dodgy

Just a few comments I want to make if thats ok?

1). This article really doesn't give any proof of this. No references to any scientific papers or articles.

2). No reference to any respected neuroscientists who accept this statement.

While i'm not saying this can't be true, this article really doesn't go into much detail so I doubt this will change anybodies mind about things.

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18-10-2014, 06:52 PM
RE: Bucky and freewill
(18-10-2014 06:29 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Turns out freewill is ours after all.

http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/neuroscienc...-free-will

Bucky, were you one of the supporters of the research that said the subconscious chose for us before we could consciously make the choice? I think Michio Kaku and Lawrence Krauss were behind that way of thinking, too.

Just curious if this will change anything in your freewill discussions. I always disagreed with that research, but didn't really care enough to get a degree and start my own research. Dodgy

I'm going to steal one of the comments because I agree with it:

Quote:His argument is nothing new. I think that mr. Dennett is confused about what free will means. It seems like he thinks free will is, will that is not a product of nature or nurture. Of course our brain was a will in fact our brain has many competing functions (wills) that are sorted out by our pre frontal cortex to settle on a action or lack thereof. But that is not free will. Free will is when our mind transends the physical prosseses in our brain and can control our behaviour by altering the phisics. Essentially it assumes that our mind controls our brain and therefore our behaviour. But the reality is that the mind is what the brain does and is a product of the very complex physical interations that occur in the brain. Therefore you have no trancendant control over the cause and effect and probabilistic forces that create your will. So yes you have a will but you didnt choose or create your own will thus it is not free. And for those who may bring up the observer effect in quantum mechanics. Bare in mind that you can't assume we have the free will in advance to choose what we observe, that may effect the manifestation of quantum properties that would then lead to some sort of free will.

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18-10-2014, 06:57 PM
RE: Bucky and freewill
(18-10-2014 06:29 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Turns out freewill is ours after all.
http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/neuroscienc...-free-will

I'm not seeing the connection between the claim that random fluctuations might imply that our decisions are not purely mechanistic and our having free will. The article even notes that "randomness is a far cry from making free and intentioned decisions". The random fluctuations wouldn't be under our control so they would not allow us to control the decision process any more than if they are purely mechanistic.

Dennett talks about the "type of free will worth having" and nothing he says requires anything more than the illusion of free will.

Quote:Bucky, were you one of the supporters of the research that said the subconscious chose for us before we could consciously make the choice?

I don't see how that affects whether we have free will or not. All that research indicated is that decisions are, at least sometimes, made in the subconcious. That is still a part of us, it would just specify where "free will" occurs (or doesn't as the case may be).

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18-10-2014, 07:35 PM
RE: Bucky and freewill
I thought this was just a summary of a much larger neuroscience study that they didn't link to, sorry. Let me look for it.

But, I still am skeptical of not having freewill because our subconscious is making the decisions. It's still my mind and it's choosing what I want, whether I'm completely aware of it or just choosing it automatically like muscle memory.

But I'll look into this research some more for a peer-reviewed piece.

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18-10-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: Bucky and freewill
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22...EMWrye9KSM

I only posted because I wondered how it would change our discussions if science ultimately proves we do indeed have freewill.

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18-10-2014, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2014 09:36 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Bucky and freewill
No it doesn't change anything.
He's offered nothing in the way of experimentation to refute the centers of research which have proven decisions are made before we are fully aware of them.
(Like the work of (Dr.) David Eagleman in Texas.)
He never really defines what he's actually talking about. He says that we are special because we can represent to ourselves the "reasons" we've done something.
a. It have been proven those reasons are a "subconscious war", the players in which we are not even fully aware of,
b. the choice is made before we are conscious of the choice
c. I'm sure many people can and do lie to themselves, (or have no idea) why they do certain things.
d. the quote in the article refutes him. IF you have to *learn* something, then you were not originally "free" to do it, now were you ?

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18-10-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Bucky and freewill
Ok, thanks. :-)

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18-10-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: Bucky and freewill
I can breathe vacuum, drink andromeda, yet I have no free will. Replace the term with "decision space," perhaps the fog shall lift.

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18-10-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: Bucky and freewill
Johnny you were missed. And that ain't no lie.
Hug

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