Burden of proof, with a twist.
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29-07-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  I have a problem with "The burden of proof".

While recognizing that, as long as an atheist only asserts that the christian believers have not presented a credible claim, the burden of proof remains with the claimer.

I believe this to be counter productive.

The smart atheist should assume the burden of proof!

It is more believable to use science to support a claim than the bible.

While this will never win an argument with a christian, the logic may ignite doubt in other members of the flock.

Isn't that the purpose?

Today I ran 5 miles, walked 15, and jogged 10.

Prove that I'm wrong.

This is not necessarily an extraordinary claim.
You can accept my claim.
Dismiss my claim.

Dismissing my claim doesn't necessary say you couldn't accept my claim you would just need to know more information. And i would be the only person capable of doing that. Since I'm the one making the claim and i'm the one that claim is about.

In debates there are often two sides. Since we're on the topic let's pretend this mythical debate is about the exsistance of Elves.

You have the one side saying there are elves. And that hasn't said anything regarding elves. The just don't accept the claim of elves on that alone.

"We wouldn't have trees or flowers because the elves planet the seeds that make them grow."

All the other side can do is show that those occurrences don't happen in the fashion the the claimer has made. They can talk about how the plants plant their own seeds with the wind or birds pooping them out. They can demonstrate these occurrences. But even after that event has be shown and explain the explanation of the elves is still left open ended. All that can be demonstrated is that the event that was attributed to the elves did not occur.


As far as convincing a person that their is no god is a whole other bag. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it. Ken Ham said (and i'm summarizing from what I remember in the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate) "Nothing can convince me that their is no god. Even if I was shown something that would tell me otherwise, I would dismiss it."

Indoctrination is powerful. When I was younger I always thought god to be a fact "Simply" because I was never told other wise. But by time I even learned what an atheist was, I still didn't understand it. I couldn't grasp what a life without a god was because everyone I had ever know was in the same disillusion. It took years for piecing together the little things that eventually chipped away any rements of the belief system.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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29-07-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  I have a problem with "The burden of proof".
No doubt.

If your were to apply the scientific method to the claims of Christianity, you would first ask them for their documented claims.

Let's say they hand you the bible.

You read it, or some of it, perhaps the first paragraph.
Then you hand it back to them and ask for a proper paper. One that comes with a synopsis, to quickly provide the claim, and then goes into detail on the mechanism, the alternatives, the expected observations if it is true, the expected observations if it is untrue (falsifiable criteria). The process the reasearcher went through to gather the data in an objective way and the results.

If they don't have these then you should request them to re-write their claim before it qualifies as being testable.
If you think you can write their claim for them without delving into strawman territory then good luck to you.
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29-07-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
There's a purpose? I thought there was only a propose.

What... the bible... has to do with this purpose or whatever is on you. That's apparently your purpose. Good for you, not a grand purpose for others.

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"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-07-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  I have a problem with "The burden of proof".
....
Isn't that the purpose?

The purpose is to elucidate, discuss and consider arguments and points from all sides. Many of which I will not have thought of. There is no room for "proof" and if it feels "burdensome" stop doing it. If you enter into debate looking to "win" you have already lost.

#sigh
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29-07-2016, 05:40 PM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
(29-07-2016 01:05 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(29-07-2016 12:38 PM)Fireball Wrote:  Just because you don't have the mental ability to define and prove the existence of your imaginary friend doesn't mean that the "smart" atheist has to take up the work for you.

You are assuming him a theist. If you read the whole OP, I doubt you would have done that.

I'm agnostic as to the level of the OP's theistic bent at this point. I did read the whole post, but when I see words like "the smart atheist", it generally is a precursor for a full blown christer's revelation of theistic beliefs. YMMV.
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30-07-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  I have a problem with "The burden of proof".

While recognizing that, as long as an atheist only asserts that the christian believers have not presented a credible claim, the burden of proof remains with the claimer.

I believe this to be counter productive.

The smart atheist should assume the burden of proof!

It is more believable to use science to support a claim than the bible.

While this will never win an argument with a christian, the logic may ignite doubt in other members of the flock.

Isn't that the purpose?

My apologies for my previous reply. I mistakenly thought you were pushing a theist agenda.
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30-07-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  I have a problem with "The burden of proof".

While recognizing that, as long as an atheist only asserts that the christian believers have not presented a credible claim, the burden of proof remains with the claimer.

I believe this to be counter productive.

I see nothing counter productive in this.

(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  The smart atheist should assume the burden of proof!

Why? Why should I try to prove that something called god does not exist?

(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  It is more believable to use science to support a claim than the bible.

Depends on who you ask.

(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  While this will never win an argument with a christian, the logic may ignite doubt in other members of the flock.

Arguing with believer is like playing chess with pigeon.

(29-07-2016 11:06 AM)thonord Wrote:  Isn't that the purpose?

Depends. I don't care if my words will make someone doubt, after all it is not my life that is being wasted by believing in nonsense.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-07-2016, 11:50 AM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
"Prove that any god or gods exist." Game over.
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30-07-2016, 01:39 PM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
(30-07-2016 11:50 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  "Prove that any god or gods exist." Game over.

Got to define one first. They believe in something that they know nothing of.

"They think, therefore I am" - god
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30-07-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Burden of proof, with a twist.
(30-07-2016 01:39 PM)TechnoMonkey Wrote:  
(30-07-2016 11:50 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  "Prove that any god or gods exist." Game over.

Got to define one first. They believe in something that they know nothing of.

That's part of the proof. If they fail at step one there's no need to go further.
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