Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
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24-11-2010, 10:37 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
uhhhh .... the whole "rationalize", "rationalise" was a bit of a joke there Stark. The UK version spells it with the "s" and the US (and I suppose Canadian) spells it with a "z". So, fr0d0 wasn't being an asshole with that comment to me, he was just playing along on my comment about the UK vs. US spelling.

At least someone got it.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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25-11-2010, 01:54 AM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
Sigh. Was a "Brits are assholes" joke. Hence the whole, "can't find a dictionary..." bit.

Meh, don't know why I bother.

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25-11-2010, 07:32 AM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
Hey TruthAddict

(24-11-2010 08:01 PM)TruthAddict Wrote:  
(24-11-2010 06:59 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Hey BnW

It's not rational or justified TO YOU if you don't conclude the same thing, but how could you? You are the result of your own history.

Are you free to choose/ Can you follow what you're pre-programmed to choose? Yes.
You're sending conflicting messages here. In your 1st sentence, you argue that BnW's viewpoint is due to his experiences, implying a "nurture" argument (or free will). And in your second sentence, you say that BnW is genetically predisposed to think a certain way, implying a "nature" argument (predestination).

Which one is it?
We all may have genetic disposition, but I wasn't touching that one, as I thought I needn't do it here. I'm talking about justifications coming from a personal history that we're all subject to. That's not predestination either. That God knows the end point as we have defined him as timeless bears no relevance to us.

Hope that helps.

Hi UB

(24-11-2010 08:06 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No one here is disagreeing that you believe that your beliefs are justified and rational. What we are saying is that you are mistaken. Your beliefs are not rational and they are not justified. You think that they are, because you don't understand the opposing arguments, but they aren't.

Now, obviously, you don't agree with the last sentence, but that's what this entire discussion is about.
Yes - you disagree with my PERSONAL justification, and claim to know what is justified for EVERYBODY, which clearly you can't.

I understand perfectly the opposing arguments, I just don't find them convincing at all. Neither do very many people, and no where is that categorically proven. So it would seem that you are making an unjustifiable claim.

I would enjoy discussing it with you if you could refrain from behaving childishly.

(25-11-2010 01:54 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Sigh. Was a "Brits are assholes" joke. Hence the whole, "can't find a dictionary..." bit.

Meh, don't know why I bother.
Don't give up the day job Stark Wink
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25-11-2010, 07:43 AM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
Quote:I would enjoy discussing it with you if you could refrain from behaving childishly.

Why do you keep telling UB he's acting childishly when all he's doing is countering your arguments? You may disagree with this positions but he's not only done nothing childish but is reacting pretty much as you are - with counter arguments. No, that's not completely true. I find that when when you run out of arguments or don't have a good rebuttal, you seem to go the insult route.

You've done this several times now and, quite honestly, at this point you've got little credibility with at least me.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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25-11-2010, 07:52 AM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
Hey BnW

UB is calling me a liar, not addressing questions then posting repeating the same arguments, getting hostile whilst I am trying to be civil with him, making illogical & baseless claims, not answering questions then claiming that he has, and then asserting that I am irrational.

It's diarrhetic verbage.
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25-11-2010, 08:03 AM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(25-11-2010 07:32 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Don't give up the day job Stark Wink

A comedian I am not. I swear though, in the real world I can pull em off once in a while.

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25-11-2010, 08:13 AM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(25-11-2010 07:52 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Hey BnW

UB is calling me a liar, not addressing questions then posting repeating the same arguments, getting hostile whilst I am trying to be civil with him, making illogical & baseless claims, not answering questions then claiming that he has, and then asserting that I am irrational.

It's diarrhetic verbage.

That's not how I see it at all. You may think I'm biased in this (and perhaps I am but I obviously don't think so) but from my perspective he's not the one who's been uncivil or insulting.

Ultimately, not my problem so there is probably no real need to debate it with me.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
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25-11-2010, 04:55 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(25-11-2010 07:32 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  
(24-11-2010 08:06 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No one here is disagreeing that you believe that your beliefs are justified and rational. What we are saying is that you are mistaken. Your beliefs are not rational and they are not justified. You think that they are, because you don't understand the opposing arguments, but they aren't.

Now, obviously, you don't agree with the last sentence, but that's what this entire discussion is about.
Yes - you disagree with my PERSONAL justification

Yes.

Quote:and claim to know what is justified for EVERYBODY

No.

If you think that my argument has been about what people might consider appropriate personal justification, then you really need to pay more attention. I am talking about what is objective justification, not subjective. I frankly don't care what your subjective justification for believing is, as long as you don't try to pretend that it is objectively valid.

Quote:I understand perfectly the opposing arguments

Apparently not. See above.

Quote:I just don't find them convincing at all. Neither do very many people, and no where is that categorically proven. So it would seem that you are making an unjustifiable claim.

And what claim would that be, exactly?

You are committing the argument ad populum fallacy, in any case. That people don't buy the arguments does nothing to make them right or wrong.

Quote:I would enjoy discussing it with you if you could refrain from behaving childishly.

If I would refrain from behaving childishly? Hel-lo, Mister Kettle! Am I the one who has been calling your posts "verbal diarrhea", been calling you a "brain-dead moron", or refusing to respond to your posts when I can't formulate a response?

I've been as civil to you as it is possible to be, under the circumstances. I have insulted you, yes, but only in response to your own insults, and certainly much less than you have insulted me.

fr0d0 Wrote:UB is calling me a liar

Because you have lied about me on multiple occasions. I call you a liar because you lie. If you do not want to be called a liar, do not lie.

Quote:not addressing questions

Like this. A blatant lie.

Quote:then posting repeating the same arguments

In response to you repeating your own arguments. Your M.O. is to simply repeat your arguments ad nauseum. When I call you on it, you simply stop responding, then claim that I never refuted anything that you said.

I have told you on multiple occasions exactly why your arguments are invalid. I even laid all my objections out in a simple, easy-to-understand format in one post. Not once did you respond to them with anything other than "nuh-uh".

Quote:getting hostile whilst I am trying to be civil with him

You call "you're a mindless bullying moron" being civil? I wouldn't like to live in your house.

Quote:making illogical & baseless claims

You keep saying this, but you have yet to provide a single example. Either provide the examples or stop lying about me.

Quote:not answering questions then claiming that he has

Show me a single question that I have not answered or stop lying.

Quote:and then asserting that I am irrational.

I do more than assert, fr0d0. I have explained exactly why you are irrational. You saying that I have not doesn't change the facts. UB is calling me a liar, not addressing questions then posting repeating the same arguments, getting hostile whilst I am trying to be civil with him, making illogical & baseless claims, not answering questions then claiming that he has, and then asserting that I am irrational.

Quote:It's diarrhetic verbage.

Oh, yes, very civil.

Try again.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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25-11-2010, 06:24 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(25-11-2010 04:55 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If you think that my argument has been about what people might consider appropriate personal justification, then you really need to pay more attention. I am talking about what is objective justification, not subjective. I frankly don't care what your subjective justification for believing is, as long as you don't try to pretend that it is objectively valid.
Let's take baby steps UB, because this is incredibly annoying. ie take one point at a time... no raising a myriad of tangential points if you would kindly oblige?

Yes I know you're not talking about personal justification - which is why I make the point... because belief in the religious sense is exclusively about personal justification. No such belief can be objectively valid - I've said it repeatedly: God cannot have proof - be independently verifiable or that would negate belief - we'd 'know' (objectively).

fr0d0 Wrote:My belief isn't rational because it's a belief... it's justified because I have reasoned it to be so. A man cannot believe anything he doesn't justify to be true... is what I'm trying to say.
Unbeliever Wrote:No one here is disagreeing that you believe that your beliefs are justified and rational. What we are saying is that you are mistaken. Your beliefs are not rational and they are not justified. You think that they are, because you don't understand the opposing arguments, but they aren't.
Now, obviously, you don't agree with the last sentence, but that's what this entire discussion is about.
So did you see above where I said that "I" reasoned it to be so? And where I said "a man cannot believe anything "he"..." I made no claim of objective reasoning yes?

Your point just there is that I'm citing objective reasoning when I clearly was not. It's exactly subjective.

So do I understand what you're saying or not?
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25-11-2010, 07:22 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(25-11-2010 06:24 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  
(25-11-2010 04:55 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If you think that my argument has been about what people might consider appropriate personal justification, then you really need to pay more attention. I am talking about what is objective justification, not subjective. I frankly don't care what your subjective justification for believing is, as long as you don't try to pretend that it is objectively valid.
Let's take baby steps UB, because this is incredibly annoying. ie take one point at a time... no raising a myriad of tangential points if you would kindly oblige?

There are no "tangential points" in that post. You strawmanned my position. I explained what my position actually is.

Quote:Yes I know you're not talking about personal justification - which is why I make the point... because belief in the religious sense is exclusively about personal justification.

You're not telling me anything new here. I knew this already. I never disagreed with that. What I am saying is that your beliefs are irrational, because...

Quote:No such belief can be objectively valid - I've said it repeatedly: God cannot have proof - be independently verifiable or that would negate belief - we'd 'know' (objectively).

...of that. Not only is there no proof for your beliefs' validity, there cannot be proof, or even evidence (despite the fact that you have attempted to present the Bible as evidence, and have made claims about the historicity of Jesus, which should leave empirical evidence). By definition, your beliefs are irrational. And again, by definition, if there cannot be evidence of God, he does not exist.

Call them "personally justified" if you want. Just don't try to pretend that they're rational.

Quote:
Unbeliever Wrote:No one here is disagreeing that you believe that your beliefs are justified and rational. What we are saying is that you are mistaken. Your beliefs are not rational and they are not justified. You think that they are, because you don't understand the opposing arguments, but they aren't.
Now, obviously, you don't agree with the last sentence, but that's what this entire discussion is about.
So did you see above where I said that "I" reasoned it to be so? And where I said "a man cannot believe anything "he"..." I made no claim of objective reasoning yes?

Then you make no claim about your beliefs being rational, and that's fine.

Quote:Your point just there is that I'm citing objective reasoning when I clearly was not.

Yes, you were. You attempted to use the Bible as evidence, and you claimed that Jesus was real. That's not subjective. That's objective. Subjective reasoning does not rely upon objective facts.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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