Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
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20-11-2010, 05:24 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
Hi

I'd like to address this subject and have you point me to the answer if it's been covered already.

Burden of proof rests with any positive claim. "God/s do/es not exist" is a positive claim that would make it eligible for a request of proof. If you cannot hope to backup the claim, you shouldn't make it.

This claim does not require a preceding claim of God's existence, as correctly, no religious adherent would ever make such a claim. "I believe in God" makes no claim about existence.
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20-11-2010, 05:35 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(20-11-2010 05:24 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  This claim does not require a preceding claim of God's existence, as correctly, no religious adherent would ever make such a claim. "I believe in God" makes no claim about existence.

Actually thats where you're wrong.
the vast majority of theists will say their god does exists.
with most of these people I question in real life saying they KNOW he is real because they can "feel" him.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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20-11-2010, 06:01 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(20-11-2010 05:24 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Burden of proof rests with any positive claim. "God/s do/es not exist" is a positive claim that would make it eligible for a request of proof. If you cannot hope to backup the claim, you shouldn't make it.

Which is why most atheists don't. Most atheists are "weak" atheists - we lack belief in God, but don't claim that we can prove that he doesn't exist. In the same way, we lack belief in Cthulhu, and are pretty sure that he doesn't exist, but we can't prove that he doesn't.

(20-11-2010 05:35 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Actually thats where you're wrong.
the vast majority of theists will say their god does exists.

There's no point in trying to explain this to him, UTM. Others - myself included - have tried. He outright ignores contradicting evidence, and redefines others' positions when they prove him wrong.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-11-2010, 06:43 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2010 06:52 PM by fr0d0.)
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
So you seem to agree with the logic there Unbeliever - that it would be illogical to make a claim of non existence ~therefore~ accepting Burden of Proof.

Please show me a theist who claim that their God exists... that is: they have more than faith that he does. And I will show you a theist who has taken on the Burden of Proof which we all know is unsupportable.

Seems we're all in agreement here.
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20-11-2010, 06:53 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(20-11-2010 06:43 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Please show me a theist who claim that their God exists... that is: they have more than faith that he does. And I will show you a theist who has taken on the Burden of Proof which we all know is unsupportable.

ok how about the many muslims in the world who would kill you for saying their god doesn't exist?
my girlfriend thinks her god exists and rationalizes it by saying shes never felt more loved than since she started praying.
or those good folks at the local churches who often beat me as a child for not agreeing their god MUST exist.

No one is in agreement with you frodo. Not on this issue anyway.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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20-11-2010, 07:00 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(20-11-2010 05:35 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Actually thats where you're wrong.
the vast majority of theists will say their god does exists.
with most of these people I question in real life saying they KNOW he is real because they can "feel" him.
What you said there doesn't counter the statement I made.

I know that God exists... but how do I know? Answer: Though faith.

What you're doing, if I might presume, is assuming that by 'know' I mean that I have proof that would satisfy scientific enquiry. Is that correct? If it is correct, then we're not talking about the same subject. My claim doesn't address scientific enquiry, but philosophical enquiry. I shoulder the Burden of Proof absolutely philosophically, but make no such claim scientifically.

Hope that helps.
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20-11-2010, 07:06 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
No, I wasn't talking scientifically.
most of these people don't count science as having anything to do with reality, to them its just a convenience in their lives, but an unnecessary one.

Alright, so what philosophical evidence do you have to support your claim anyway? just out of curiousity...

and what do you mean by saying you 'know' he exists philosophically but don't have scientific proof for it?
is it like someone believing in ghosts but not having anything to prove it with? in which case I'd say its blind faith.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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20-11-2010, 07:09 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(20-11-2010 06:53 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  ok how about the many muslims in the world who would kill you for saying their god doesn't exist?
or those good folks at the local churches who often beat me as a child for not agreeing their god MUST exist.

No one is in agreement with you frodo. Not on this issue anyway.
Hi

To force someone to accept the existence of God is to remove the choice they must have to believe. It's anti theism. People make mistakes. Christianity is perfect, Christians aren't : C.S. Lewis.

I don't need agreement. I only need the right answer... which I've asked for help with here.
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20-11-2010, 07:16 PM
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(20-11-2010 07:09 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Hi

To force someone to accept the existence of God is to remove the choice they must have to believe. It's anti theism. People make mistakes. Christianity is perfect, Christians aren't : C.S. Lewis.

I don't need agreement. I only need the right answer... which I've asked for help with here.

Just a side note: Christianity is by no means perfect, nor is any other set of beliefs or practices in the world.


I never said you did need agreement, but you had said that 'we' were agreeing with you except for a few others. I was just saying that none of us were agreeing with you on the subject.


and what question is it that you want help with? I'd be happy to sum it up as best I can in a way that is easy for us all to comprehend.


P.S. I agree on one thing, forcing someone to believe is taking away their choice.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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20-11-2010, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2010 07:25 PM by fr0d0.)
RE: Burdon of proof HOPEFULLY once and for all!
(20-11-2010 07:06 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  No, I wasn't talking scientifically.
most of these people don't count science as having anything to do with reality, to them its just a convenience in their lives, but an unnecessary one.

Alright, so what philosophical evidence do you have to support your claim anyway? just out of curiousity...

and what do you mean by saying you 'know' he exists philosophically but don't have scientific proof for it?
is it like someone believing in ghosts but not having anything to prove it with? in which case I'd say its blind faith.
The Burden of Proof claim rests solely on a scientifically testable answer, as it's commonly (if not exclusively in discussions on religion) framed.

By "these people" I take it you're promoting Young Earth Creationists as representative of the whole Christian church ignoring Creationists, as well as Old Earth Creationists and Evolutionists such as myself. As I find the position of YEC intellectually untenable I'd have difficulty arguing from that POV. In fact I can't.

Faith is the result of acting upon information you trust to be true. That's the philosophical basis for my belief.

Blind faith would lack information.

I can't have scientifically acceptable evidence of something that denies scientifically acceptable proof. Unless you can build me a rational explanation of how. Until then I'll continue to hold what seems rock solid reasoning on that point.
(20-11-2010 07:16 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Just a side note: Christianity is by no means perfect, nor is any other set of beliefs or practices in the world.
I would accept the theory there, and reserve the potential of religion to evolve and improve. I do think it's as perfect as we have, and is currently logically beyond reproach.

(20-11-2010 07:16 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  I never said you did need agreement, but you had said that 'we' were agreeing with you except for a few others. I was just saying that none of us were agreeing with you on the subject.

and what question is it that you want help with? I'd be happy to sum it up as best I can in a way that is easy for us all to comprehend.
It would appear from Unbelievers reply that he is in agreement with my statement, that a claim of "God does not exist" shoulders the Burden of Proof. That is what I was addressing, and is why I'm posting in this thread.
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