Burka-ban here to stay!
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02-07-2014, 01:27 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(02-07-2014 12:43 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(02-07-2014 12:22 AM)Dee Wrote:  ...
However, I believe it's a violation of human rights to be told what not to wear
...

I'm with you up to that point ^^^

And also... to be told what not to wear.

The religious significance or otherwise is irrelevant.

I have no problem with a community deciding what policies / rules it wants to have in place to achieve its vision of harmonious societal living (or whatever its vision might be).

Laws against clothing restrictions (rather than imposing restrictions) make more sense to me.

An exception could be on the grounds of 'health and safety' but that could be in the form of 'guidance' rather than 'law'.

But, religious/cultural clothing aside, imposing clothing restrictions to promote "harmonious societal living" smacks hard against tolerance, difference, and diversity, promoting insularity instead.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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02-07-2014, 04:41 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
I'm not aloud to wear my motorbike helmet when paying for gas at a service station.
Not always but they often asked me to remove my helmet.
It's because if I decided to jump across the counter and stab the Indian clerk than at least they have my face on camera.

The same goes for some religious shit. If you can't see their face and other features than you can't identify them, it's a security hazard.

I remember seeing on the news a few weeks back prior to the Afghanistan election, terrorists dressed in burka's to gain access to electoral place so they could shoot up the place.
Yes it's Afghanistan BUT if they had been asked to remove their burka's those men would not have been able to get inside to shoot up the place.

Obviously this is extreme case in an extreme country, but the same sort of principles stand.


Plus fuck Islam, it's a plague on society and any law that prevents them doing whatever it is they do (in this case oppress women) is encouraged by me.
Muslims are a bunch of cunts and all need to be shot, so this is pretty tame IMO.

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02-07-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(02-07-2014 12:22 AM)Dee Wrote:  I believe we all feel the burqa is a restriction on a women's freedom. I do. However, I believe it's a violation of human rights to be told what not to wear when the apparel is significant to culture/religion. Also, I am concerned that women who feel they must wear the burqa will be compelled to leave France. This is not a positive ruling for human rights: it's not going to free anyone, just run certain women out of France.

Shame on France and the European High Court for targeting cultural/religious clothing for women.

I don't agree. How do you tell when something is “significant to culture/religion” and when it's not? And more important, how do you label an individual as belonging to a certain culture/religion, so that you might apply the proper laws?
This leads all the way to allowing stoning for people who come from cultures where stoning is practised. Or infibulation. Or ostracizing albinos.
I find that respecting “cultures” is tantamount to disrespecting persons. We have had a few cases in recent years in Italy of adolescent or pre-adolescent girls from Muslim immigrant families who were killed by their fathers because they didn't comply with the precepts of their “culture” – for example they refused to dress the way their family wanted. A law “allowing” them to wear a burqa is actually a law compelling them to be imprisoned, in the name of the respect for cultures and disregarding individuals and their right to be dissidents.
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03-07-2014, 01:09 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(02-07-2014 08:50 AM)Plic Wrote:  
(02-07-2014 12:22 AM)Dee Wrote:  I believe we all feel the burqa is a restriction on a women's freedom. I do. However, I believe it's a violation of human rights to be told what not to wear when the apparel is significant to culture/religion. Also, I am concerned that women who feel they must wear the burqa will be compelled to leave France. This is not a positive ruling for human rights: it's not going to free anyone, just run certain women out of France.

Shame on France and the European High Court for targeting cultural/religious clothing for women.

I don't agree. How do you tell when something is “significant to culture/religion” and when it's not? And more important, how do you label an individual as belonging to a certain culture/religion, so that you might apply the proper laws?
This leads all the way to allowing stoning for people who come from cultures where stoning is practised. Or infibulation. Or ostracizing albinos.
I find that respecting “cultures” is tantamount to disrespecting persons. We have had a few cases in recent years in Italy of adolescent or pre-adolescent girls from Muslim immigrant families who were killed by their fathers because they didn't comply with the precepts of their “culture” – for example they refused to dress the way their family wanted. A law “allowing” them to wear a burqa is actually a law compelling them to be imprisoned, in the name of the respect for cultures and disregarding individuals and their right to be dissidents.

It's too bad you missed my concern that outlawing the burqa in France will run the women compelled to wear the burqa out of France. Now where do you think they will go? They may quite possibly be compelled to go a dangerous culture, one that encourages stoning.

Changes are long and tedious. Nothing about radical Islamic thinking is going to change anytime soon or even in the perceivable future. Is it not better, where we are now in time, to allow the women compelled to wear the burqu in France wear it than to force them to fucking leave?

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03-07-2014, 01:54 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(02-07-2014 04:41 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  ...
The same goes for some religious shit. If you can't see their face and other features than you can't identify them, it's a security hazard.
...
Plus fuck Islam, it's a plague on society and any law that prevents them doing whatever it is they do (in this case oppress women) is encouraged by me.
Muslims are a bunch of cunts and all need to be shot, so this is pretty tame IMO.

Your prejudices are showing again.

Yes, it's a trade-off between freedom vs. security. Always has been. Always will be.

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But both these dudes are right. One, the pragmatist; the other the idealist.

Civilisation is all about pragmatic solutions on the path to achieving ideals.

So, yup, Dee makes the point...

(03-07-2014 01:09 AM)Dee Wrote:  ...
Changes are long and tedious. Nothing about radical Islamic thinking is going to change anytime soon or even in the perceivable future. Is it not better, where we are now in time, to allow the women compelled to wear the burqu in France wear it than to force them to fucking leave?

But it all depends on what a society (made up of different, and often conflicting, stakeholders' needs) deems to be 'ideal'.

Muffs, you may not realise it but you are advocating 'cleansing'.

Play the white man and stop playing the white man!

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03-07-2014, 02:21 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
I've wrestled with this question for a while but I have to admit that while I find the idea of the burqa deeply troubling I find banning it more so.

I should say at this point that because something is significant to a culture or religion is not in itself a good enough reason - polygamy was/is significant to the Mormon religion and I don't think any of us would support allowances for it on the grounds of religion.

An outright ban strikes me as the kind of totalitarian move that is normally reserved for the religious...
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03-07-2014, 04:24 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(03-07-2014 01:09 AM)Dee Wrote:  It's too bad you missed my concern that outlawing the burqa in France will run the women compelled to wear the burqa out of France. Now where do you think they will go? They may quite possibly be compelled to go a dangerous culture, one that encourages stoning.

Changes are long and tedious. Nothing about radical Islamic thinking is going to change anytime soon or even in the perceivable future. Is it not better, where we are now in time, to allow the women compelled to wear the burqu in France wear it than to force them to fucking leave?

I don't think it's likely that the affected women/families will go back to their countries of origin, since they had far more pressing reasons to leave their coutries in the first place. I have no data though, I'm argumenting on a hunch so I'm ready to stand corrected. I think that it's much more probable that the affected women will be obliged never to get out of home, if the veil is imposed by family members, and will feel their quality of living and freedom to be greatly reduced, if the veil is their choice. So I'm not saying the ban is the perfect, splendid way to the liberation of women or anything like that. I don't really know and I don't think there's an easy solution.

But I was addressing a specific detail of what you said, namely the idea of allowing burqas as important items of clothing for a certain culture or religion. This is what I find dangerous. But maybe I misinterpreted you. Did you mean that islamic women (and they only) should be allowed to wear it or that everybody should? I see an enormous difference between the two. The first is on a par with racial laws for me. The second has obviously other issues.
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03-07-2014, 04:44 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(03-07-2014 04:24 AM)Plic Wrote:  
(03-07-2014 01:09 AM)Dee Wrote:  It's too bad you missed my concern that outlawing the burqa in France will run the women compelled to wear the burqa out of France. Now where do you think they will go? They may quite possibly be compelled to go a dangerous culture, one that encourages stoning.

Changes are long and tedious. Nothing about radical Islamic thinking is going to change anytime soon or even in the perceivable future. Is it not better, where we are now in time, to allow the women compelled to wear the burqu in France wear it than to force them to fucking leave?

I don't think it's likely that the affected women/families will go back to their countries of origin, since they had far more pressing reasons to leave their coutries in the first place. I have no data though, I'm argumenting on a hunch so I'm ready to stand corrected. I think that it's much more probable that the affected women will be obliged never to get out of home, if the veil is imposed by family members, and will feel their quality of living and freedom to be greatly reduced, if the veil is their choice. So I'm not saying the ban is the perfect, splendid way to the liberation of women or anything like that. I don't really know and I don't think there's an easy solution.

But I was addressing a specific detail of what you said, namely the idea of allowing burqas as important items of clothing for a certain culture or religion. This is what I find dangerous. But maybe I misinterpreted you. Did you mean that islamic women (and they only) should be allowed to wear it or that everybody should? I see an enormous difference between the two. The first is on a par with racial laws for me. The second has obviously other issues.

I was thinking about Islamic women, but yes, anyone who wants to wear the damn thing should be allowed. I don't see an enormous difference, and I only see Islamic women wearing the burqa.

What racial laws are you speaking of?

I don't know where you are from, but I am from the States. I would fight tooth and nail to preserve the right of the KKK to hold public parades just as I would do the same for the wearing of the burqa. Yet, I despise what they stand for. The KKK has basically lost credence through more enlightened thinking. I believe that for women wearing the burqa, in more enlightened countries, the same will happen over time.

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03-07-2014, 07:31 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
Quote:Muffs, you may not realise it but you are advocating 'cleansing'.

No I'm not. Firstly, Arabs aren't the only Muslims, there are many western Muslims.
Second, the countries in question that would have these laws are western countries which are not Muslim countries.

If you're an immigrant and you move to another country than you should be expected to adapt to that country, not the country adapt to you. I'm not saying we should ban culture or anything, I think diverse countries are good, but I think you need to look at things in perspective relative to the country in question. In this case many Muslim ideals, such as burka's, are not in line with western country ideals and as such shouldn't be forced upon western countries.

If you have laws already in place regarding clothing for the purpose of security than it is equal to include things such as burka's because burka's don't fall under western country culture.
It's not racist to say "that muslim shouldn't be aloud to wear a burka into a store". That's following the law laid out for people within that country that everyone must follow. It's inclusive and equal.

If you allow burka's to be worn than you are exempting a minority from having to abide by the law laid out for the people. That is racist and unfair.

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03-07-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(03-07-2014 02:21 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  I've wrestled with this question for a while but I have to admit that while I find the idea of the burqa deeply troubling I find banning it more so.

I should say at this point that because something is significant to a culture or religion is not in itself a good enough reason - polygamy was/is significant to the Mormon religion and I don't think any of us would support allowances for it on the grounds of religion.

An outright ban strikes me as the kind of totalitarian move that is normally reserved for the religious...

Just so.

Sartorial laws are a fucking medieval relic. No less so when it's thou must not instead of thou must.

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