Burka-ban here to stay!
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03-07-2014, 09:53 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(03-07-2014 07:31 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Muffs, you may not realise it but you are advocating 'cleansing'.

No I'm not.
Consider
(02-07-2014 04:41 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  ...
Plus fuck Islam, it's a plague on society and any law that prevents them doing whatever it is they do (in this case oppress women) is encouraged by me.
Muslims are a bunch of cunts and all need to be shot, so this is pretty tame IMO.

Consider

Let's edit slightly...

(02-07-2014 04:41 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  ...
Plus fuck the Jews, it's a plague on German society and any law that prevents them doing whatever it is they do is encouraged by me.
Jews are a bunch of cunts and all need to be shot, so this is pretty tame IMO.

Nope, no cleansing there.

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(03-07-2014 07:31 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  If you're an immigrant and you move to another country than you should be expected to adapt to that country, not the country adapt to you.

Agreed. Adopt and adapt.

(03-07-2014 07:31 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  the countries in question that would have these laws are western countries which are not Muslim countries.

For now.

Must they remain 'western'? Why?

(03-07-2014 07:31 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  ...
That is racist and unfair.

How has this got anything to do with race?

Huh

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03-07-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
Quote:Nope, no cleansing there.

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Except the Jewish religion isn't fucked up and isn't based around violence to the degree that Islam is. Islam is built on violence. It breeds extremism, see current day Iraq for more information. Islam is a plague, Judaism is not.

Quote:How has this got anything to do with race?

Discrimination and unfair than.

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03-07-2014, 05:43 PM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
So I had to look this up because I have no computer and can't read the article (no google translate). Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like a religious exemption was sought for burkas from a law that prohibited masks or facial covering in public places for safety reasons. And the governments refusal in this case is perfectly reasonable.
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03-07-2014, 05:50 PM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(03-07-2014 05:43 PM)natachan Wrote:  So I had to look this up because I have no computer and can't read the article (no google translate). Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like a religious exemption was sought for burkas from a law that prohibited masks or facial covering in public places for safety reasons. And the governments refusal in this case is perfectly reasonable.

If that is the reasoning then I support that - I freely admit that the way this has been reported led to my earlier post. Having said that I don't like 'Thou shalt not' laws - I'm all in favour of not giving religion special privileges, so if those are the grounds on which this ruling was sought then I am in favour of it.
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04-07-2014, 03:09 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(03-07-2014 04:44 AM)Dee Wrote:  I was thinking about Islamic women, but yes, anyone who wants to wear the damn thing should be allowed. I don't see an enormous difference, and I only see Islamic women wearing the burqa.

What racial laws are you speaking of?

The difference is that if you want a law to apply to a certain group of people you need a way to discriminate that group from the others. (“discriminate” in the sense of differentiating, not in the negative sense.) You need to place a mark on everyone and to build an archive of the religious convictions/culture of origin/ethnicity/whatever of everyone. I would oppose this with all my strength. Not only it's unjust, fascist, and extremely dangerous (this is what happened in Italy and Germany in the 30s with the Jews, and you know how it ended); it's also downright absurd (what do you do with people of mixed origin? how do you survey people's intimate convictions? how can you place a tab on something so indefinite and vague as one's belonging to a certain culture?)

About letting everybody wear it, it conflicts with the law against having your face covered in public. I suppose you have such a law in the States too. The specific ban on the burqas is actually redundant, since it was already illegal to be dressed that way. We can discuss whether it's fair or not to have such a law, but it makes no sense (in an “enlightened” country) to have such a law for somebody and not for all.


(03-07-2014 04:44 AM)Dee Wrote:  I don't know where you are from, but I am from the States. I would fight tooth and nail to preserve the right of the KKK to hold public parades just as I would do the same for the wearing of the burqa. Yet, I despise what they stand for. The KKK has basically lost credence through more enlightened thinking. I believe that for women wearing the burqa, in more enlightened countries, the same will happen over time.

I'm from Italy. I agree completely about freedom of expression (to give a local example, promoting fascism has been outlawed here after WWII, and I think that's wrong, even if I totally despise fascism), but I don't think KKK parades are really a good example here. The good example would be a community were people are forced to wear KKK hoods and to behave in a certain way.

I wanted to add a few more points but I have a train to catch, I'll continue later.
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04-07-2014, 04:44 AM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
If you want to cover yourself in a cloth or even a swarm of bees that is fine with me!
However, if you want to have freedom to travel and to be seen you should show your face to all as we as a culture that work of faces. Passports and drivers licences and some credit cards have a photo of the owner of that card. So we know if you are.

On the other side of this I as a biologist I worry that the females are not getting Vid D in to there body! So some medical problems associated with that can come back after we had almost eradicated it!

K:

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04-07-2014, 04:33 PM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2014 04:38 PM by Plic.)
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(04-07-2014 04:44 AM)JONES Wrote:  On the other side of this I as a biologist I worry that the females are not getting Vid D in to there body! So some medical problems associated with that can come back after we had almost eradicated it!

This gets me straight to my other point… I know a person who worked in Afghanistan a few years ago for an international organization trying to provide medical support in zones where no hospital and nearly no doctors were present. Well, one of the problems they had to face was that some men (absolutely not all men!) were not willing to have their wife visited by a male doctor, not even visited without being touched, because this would require her to remove her garment. They were firm in rather letting her DIE than being SEEN (let alone touched or operated on) by a male stranger. And visiting a woman without the consent of her husband, or in his absence the consent of her adult male next of kin, was totally out of the question.
So, let's bring this to the West: should we
1) allow the full veil and when a woman needs medical treatment of any kind, even the most trivial, ask for her husband’s or brother’s or father’s permission, and if we don't obtain it, she can just fuck off;
2) allow the full veil and when a woman needs medical treatment we do it on the woman's consent alone and we don't care about what happens when she gets back home as a dishonoured woman;
3) build a parallel health care system with only women doctors*;
4) ban the full veil (i.e. apply the same laws to Islamic women and to everybody else).
Hmm. Get on with the answers. Answer 4) brings its own problems but I think the others bring more, bigger problems.

Just think that all of this applies to minors too, to adolescents and in some cases to children. We're not only talking of freely choosing adults.


* woman doctors or women doctors? (grammar doubt)
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04-07-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(04-07-2014 04:33 PM)Plic Wrote:  * woman doctors or women doctors? (grammar doubt)

Go with 'female doctors' - problem solved Thumbsup
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04-07-2014, 10:40 PM
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(04-07-2014 08:07 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  ...
Go with 'female doctors'

Whenever I get the opportunity.

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05-07-2014, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2014 01:33 AM by Free Thought.)
RE: Burka-ban here to stay!
(03-07-2014 04:08 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Except the Jewish religion isn't fucked up and isn't based around violence to the degree that Islam is. Islam is built on violence. It breeds extremism, see current day Iraq for more information. Islam is a plague, Judaism is not.

Just to point out, Judaism does exactly have a stellar reputation for being based in buddistic non-violence either, given the rivers of blood which occur frequently in the foundational document of the faith; the faith is built entirely on the myth of a war god-cum-sole deity and the dedicated tribe (the Jews) gaily slaughtering (occasionally with a few pinches of genocide for flavour) everybody who gets in their way for reasons varying from "to free us from slavery', to 'we want their land', to 'Fuckit, why not?'
Judaism is a religion built on violence (or, at least the myth of it).

And last I read, the Jews have a good share of crazy, militant extremists too, Muffs.

I doubt that you will ever find a single religion which does not breed extremism; even Buddhism produces them.


As for the thread itself, I find myself somewhat in apprehension regarding that ban... I support it in that the burka is indeed a significant security risk, but I can't quite get rid of the nagging feelings regarding personal freedoms..

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