Burqa Ban
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14-09-2010, 03:43 PM
 
Burqa Ban
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...an/?hpt=T1

What do you guys think? Is this a move towards secularization or does it impede on individual liberties? I'm pretty sure the move is to ensure equality among the sexes from a secular point of view and not a Christian thing. I could be wrong though.
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14-09-2010, 04:02 PM
 
RE: Burqa Ban
I'll say nothing as to intent because I assume the intent to be a positive one. However you simply can't legislate equality of the sexes. These women wear these things voluntarily. Now do these religions degrade women, sure they do but the women are not jailed, they don't have shock collars. If they wish to not do it, or leave they can. I just don't see this having any impact accept to further intensify ill feelings.
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14-09-2010, 06:32 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
Quote:If they wish to not do it, or leave they can.

I'm not sure that's really true. Sure, in theory it's true, but in reality I don't think so.

Take the example of the children who were victims of pedophile priests. Many of them never said anything but there were certainly some who did. Why did their parents keep sending them back to these predators? Is it because they hated their children? Or because they were stupid? Most likely that is not the reason. What is more likely is they felt trapped. They were generally working class people who grew up in Catholic neighborhoods who's whole life was their community, their family, and the church. The few who did make noise we now know were routinely ostracized from their communities. Their choices very quickly became "shut up and play ball" or be outcasts from the only society they know, shunned by friends and family.

I know very little about the structure of the Muslim community in France but I do know that they have high unemployment and most likely are poor or working class. That probably puts them in a communal structure similar to what a lot of Catholics had in the US in the 60s and 70s. So, if that is the case, and these women have no real money, no real education, and don't know anyone outside of the communities, exactly how are they just going to say "I reject this custom and the consequences be damned"?

The answer is they won't, because, realistically, they can't. We can all sit here thousands of miles away and say "of course they can, it's a choice" but I suspect that it really isn't.

I'm not sure how I feel about this but my gut feeling is that if you were able to privately ask every Muslim woman in France how she felt and she was able to speak completely anonymously, a large majority would probably applaud this.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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14-09-2010, 07:45 PM
 
RE: Burqa Ban
(14-09-2010 03:43 PM)TruthAddict Wrote:  http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...an/?hpt=T1

What do you guys think? Is this a move towards secularization or does it impede on individual liberties?

Yes and yes. I think legislation that limits the expression of religion will always strengthen religion. This kind of law will only serve to create martyrs for the fundamentalist cause.
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14-09-2010, 11:53 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
(14-09-2010 07:45 PM)athnostic Wrote:  Yes and yes. I think legislation that limits the expression of religion will always strengthen religion. This kind of law will only serve to create martyrs for the fundamentalist cause.

Damn it, I hope that is not true. Secular laws have made it safe for us to speak out as atheists, and with time, I hope that this law and others will blunt the abuse of muslim women. I hope I am right, and not for my sake, but for their sake and everyone else.
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15-09-2010, 01:52 AM
 
RE: Burqa Ban
(14-09-2010 11:53 PM)No J. Wrote:  
(14-09-2010 07:45 PM)athnostic Wrote:  Yes and yes. I think legislation that limits the expression of religion will always strengthen religion. This kind of law will only serve to create martyrs for the fundamentalist cause.

Damn it, I hope that is not true. Secular laws have made it safe for us to speak out as atheists, and with time, I hope that this law and others will blunt the abuse of muslim women. I hope I am right, and not for my sake, but for their sake and everyone else.

It's not clear that legislation limiting the expression of religion "strengthens" that religion, but it usually pushes more the followers of that religion toward extremism. Religious fanatics thrive on the notion they're being persecuted for their beliefs.

No J.'s take on this is optimistic, but I seriously doubt that such a law going to reduce the abuse of muslim women. I hope I'm wrong - there's some precedent that legislation can affect positive change over time: consider the evolution of civil rights in the US. Federal legislation required equal treatment even where bigotry had been deeply entrenched. With time, that bigotry has been reduced (although it certainly hasn't disappeared!), and most everyone now accepts the changes in society that legislation required.

I'll accept that logical possibility, but I still doubt this law will have a positive effect.
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15-09-2010, 09:11 AM
 
RE: Burqa Ban
I've been thinking about this (probably more than I should be), and its a very puzzling thing for me. I just can't grasp why a goverment would be legislating this type of thing. It's true that people find themselves "trapped" in many unpleasant situations, unhappy marriages, religion, etc where the risk of "getting out" is great because there is no support, but this burqa thing doesn't get these women "out" of their situation in any way. It simply dictates how they must dress not how they are treated. I mean when I really analyze it it's completely silly to think this does anything positive. Is it not like legislating that Catholics have to let women where priest collars if they want to? There still not priests, its just clothes. I will add one caveat, I do oppose a situation like the Taliban where women were forced to wear these things against there will by the government. What am I missing? Why the overwhelming support? What do they think they are accomplishing? Are the deluding themselves, by thinking they are "saving" these women?
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15-09-2010, 11:20 AM
RE: Burqa Ban
I think it's the right move. Burqas are a symbol of oppression, the subjugation of women and people within this secular country should not be subjected to this form of oppression no matter what your religious beliefs are. Under the guise of religion you can get away with practically anything
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15-09-2010, 12:32 PM
 
RE: Burqa Ban
(15-09-2010 11:20 AM)sosa Wrote:  I think it's the right move. Burqas are a symbol of oppression, the subjugation of women and people within this secular country should not be subjected to this form of oppression no matter what your religious beliefs are. Under the guise of religion you can get away with practically anything

Hmmm... so if you believe you need to punish yourself nightly to repent for your sins, should the government protect you from yourself. How about if relatively middle class people decide to give all their money to a preacher and live in grass huts. Are they being oppressed? Should the government ban giving all your money to a preacher? For whatever twisted reason these people feel that wearing these things is the right thing to do. So because we feel differently we should disallow it? These women are oppressed by their very own beliefs. Is that true oppression? The only logical argument I can make is that for security reasons it is dangerous to be completely veiled i.e. we can't see what you look like, but no one is making that argument.
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15-09-2010, 01:09 PM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2010 01:13 PM by sosa.)
RE: Burqa Ban
(15-09-2010 12:32 PM)Dregs Wrote:  
(15-09-2010 11:20 AM)sosa Wrote:  I think it's the right move. Burqas are a symbol of oppression, the subjugation of women and people within this secular country should not be subjected to this form of oppression no matter what your religious beliefs are. Under the guise of religion you can get away with practically anything

Hmmm... so if you believe you need to punish yourself nightly to repent for your sins, should the government protect you from yourself. How about if relatively middle class people decide to give all their money to a preacher and live in grass huts. Are they being oppressed? Should the government ban giving all your money to a preacher? For whatever twisted reason these people feel that wearing these things is the right thing to do. So because we feel differently we should disallow it? These women are oppressed by their very own beliefs. Is that true oppression? The only logical argument I can make is that for security reasons it is dangerous to be completely veiled i.e. we can't see what you look like, but no one is making that argument.

Do you really think that these women choose to wear these?

Your argument makes no sense. I am not arguing that the government should protect you from yourself. I am arguing that it should protect you (in this case women) from being forced to do something that is imposed on them. What do you think would be the consequence if a muslim woman chooses to not wear a burqa? acid to the face comes to mind right away.
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