Burqa Ban
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21-09-2010, 01:33 AM
RE: Burqa Ban
Also you have to remember that Islam is political immune in most european countries now, so these men tend not to even be breaking the law by oppressing women.

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21-09-2010, 01:10 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
(20-09-2010 07:55 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  What you are missing is that they are being forced to wear burqas by their husbands whether it's legal to force them or not. And no, it's not as simple as "well go to the police and tell them". It's not a black and white world we live in, and things aren't always as simple as, "well it's against the law, so they can't do it."
I feel like if they had enough of a problem with it, they wouldn't do it. They may not like it, but they are doing it for the sake of their God and I don't consider that "forcing".
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21-09-2010, 02:23 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
(21-09-2010 01:10 PM)jkshrout Wrote:  
(20-09-2010 07:55 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  What you are missing is that they are being forced to wear burqas by their husbands whether it's legal to force them or not. And no, it's not as simple as "well go to the police and tell them". It's not a black and white world we live in, and things aren't always as simple as, "well it's against the law, so they can't do it."
I feel like if they had enough of a problem with it, they wouldn't do it. They may not like it, but they are doing it for the sake of their God and I don't consider that "forcing".

I don't mean to sound condescending, but you should do some research on the consequences some women have suffered at the hands of their husbands by not wearing a burqa. The most publicized, as mentioned previously in this thread, is throwing acid in the face of their wives. There are others, and a little digging should be enlightening.
It's not a matter of husbands being upset with their wives for not doing what they are told. It's a matter of severe abuse.

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21-09-2010, 02:44 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
We've come full circle on this, but I'm with Stark on this. While there may be Muslim women happily wearing these things, I think the overwhelming majority are not. They just have no choice. It's easy to say "everyone has a choice" but you are not in their shoes.

And, the argument that they can just leave is not realistic. Where are they going to go? Most of these women will have limited education, limited skills to get a job, and their whole live is in this community. If they leave, the are walking away from everyone and everything they know. Friends, family, etc. How exactly do they just pick up and leave? What if they have kids, how do they provide for them? They are essentially trapped by their circumstances.

I said this early in this thread: I'd bet any amount of money if you could conduct a completely anonymous poll of Muslim women in France, or anywhere else in the world, on this law and they all knew there were no chance of repercussions for their answers, that at least 70% of them would say they are absolutely for it and probably even thankful it. At least 70%.

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21-09-2010, 03:00 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
(21-09-2010 02:23 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(21-09-2010 01:10 PM)jkshrout Wrote:  
(20-09-2010 07:55 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  What you are missing is that they are being forced to wear burqas by their husbands whether it's legal to force them or not. And no, it's not as simple as "well go to the police and tell them". It's not a black and white world we live in, and things aren't always as simple as, "well it's against the law, so they can't do it."
I feel like if they had enough of a problem with it, they wouldn't do it. They may not like it, but they are doing it for the sake of their God and I don't consider that "forcing".

I don't mean to sound condescending, but you should do some research on the consequences some women have suffered at the hands of their husbands by not wearing a burqa. The most publicized, as mentioned previously in this thread, is throwing acid in the face of their wives. There are others, and a little digging should be enlightening.
It's not a matter of husbands being upset with their wives for not doing what they are told. It's a matter of severe abuse.
Abusing your spouse is illegal in France (at least I think it is), especially that severely.

I just don't get what goes through these Muslim women's heads. They don't want to wear the burqa, but they do because they're afraid of abuse, which is completely legal in France, yet even though they have a way out of wearing the burqas, they don't take it. Perhaps they are afraid of their God?

No one is forcing these French Muslim women to wear the burqas because they have other options, regardless of how afraid they are to take them.

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21-09-2010, 03:30 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
There are many kinds of abuse. There is physical abuse, there is mental abuse, there is being ostracized from your small society, etc. Not all those forms of abuse are illegal. I'm not an expert in French law but I'm fairly certain if you go to the cops or the courts and say "my friends and family will no longer talk to me and act as if I'm dead", you're not going to see a whole lot of action taken.

Perhaps they do have choices, but they certainly don't have easy choices. And, if you have no means to leave or no place to go, do you really have a choice? In my mind at least, you do not.

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21-09-2010, 03:50 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
(21-09-2010 03:30 PM)BnW Wrote:  There are many kinds of abuse. There is physical abuse, there is mental abuse, there is being ostracized from your small society, etc. Not all those forms of abuse are illegal. I'm not an expert in French law but I'm fairly certain if you go to the cops or the courts and say "my friends and family will no longer talk to me and act as if I'm dead", you're not going to see a whole lot of action taken.

Perhaps they do have choices, but they certainly don't have easy choices. And, if you have no means to leave or no place to go, do you really have a choice? In my mind at least, you do not.

Exactly.

and just to add, it is extremely naive to think that just because something is against the law must mean it doesn't happen. I know you're only fifteen jkshrout, but you have to start thinking in broader terms than just black and white. I commend you for taking part in a complex, and somewhat "adult" conversation, so take what I am saying to you as advice intended as friendly, not confrontaional, ok?

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21-09-2010, 07:12 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
(21-09-2010 03:30 PM)BnW Wrote:  There are many kinds of abuse. There is physical abuse, there is mental abuse, there is being ostracized from your small society, etc. Not all those forms of abuse are illegal. I'm not an expert in French law but I'm fairly certain if you go to the cops or the courts and say "my friends and family will no longer talk to me and act as if I'm dead", you're not going to see a whole lot of action taken.

Perhaps they do have choices, but they certainly don't have easy choices. And, if you have no means to leave or no place to go, do you really have a choice? In my mind at least, you do not.
That's true. I didn't think of that. I guess they're not left with a lot of options.

(21-09-2010 03:50 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I commend you for taking part in a complex, and somewhat "adult" conversation, so take what I am saying to you as advice intended as friendly, not confrontaional, ok?
I know it's friendly. I never let a debate/discussion get hostile. I also completely understand your side of the argument. I personally would have gotten out while I could, but I completely understand why someone would be too afraid to do so.

But please do not think that I am mentally inferior to you just because I am younger. I'm not getting that vibe from you, but I am often looked down upon due to my age. YOU KNOW HOW THE STRUGGLE IS.

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21-09-2010, 07:25 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
Think of it this way. Imagine your parents wanted you to do something you don't want to do -- anything -- at age 18 and told you your choice was to do it or get our of their house. You have no job, a high school education, and your parents say "do [whatever]" or you're 100% on your own. No home, no food, no clothes, no money. Just whatever is on your back and in your pocket.

What do you do? Do you really have a choice here? Can you "choose" to not do whatever it is and suffer the consequences?

Quote:But please do not think that I am mentally inferior to you just because I am younger.

I never think someone is mentally inferior to me because they are young. I do, though, often think that they have no life experience and, therefore, no idea what they are talking about.

Try not to take it personally, though.

And, while we are on the subject, stop giving your parents such a hard time. They really do know best. Cool

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21-09-2010, 07:33 PM
RE: Burqa Ban
(21-09-2010 07:25 PM)BnW Wrote:  Think of it this way. Imagine your parents wanted you to do something you don't want to do -- anything -- at age 18 and told you your choice was to do it or get our of their house. You have no job, a high school education, and your parents say "do [whatever]" or you're 100% on your own. No home, no food, no clothes, no money. Just whatever is on your back and in your pocket.

What do you do? Do you really have a choice here? Can you "choose" to not do whatever it is and suffer the consequences?

Quote:But please do not think that I am mentally inferior to you just because I am younger.

I never think someone is mentally inferior to me because they are young. I do, though, often think that they have no life experience and, therefore, no idea what they are talking about.

Try not to take it personally, though.

And, while we are on the subject, stop giving your parents such a hard time. They really do know best. Cool
I personally would try to negotiate, but you do make a very good point. Still, I think there's a difference between parents forcing their kid to do something and a husband forcing his wife to do something. But you're absolutely right.

Oh, and you clearly haven't met my mother. She's somewhat of a bonehead. Tongue

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