But what about regular ghosts?
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20-08-2015, 09:26 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(20-08-2015 09:10 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This is from Cracked, and sometimes they are full of shit. But natural explanations for these paranormal experiences, are much easier to swallow than supernatural ones. Drinking Beverage

Seems Occam's razor-ish to me, which works for me. If we have natural explanations that work, why bother complicating the issue by using a creating/using a different realm of reality in your explanation?
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20-08-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(20-08-2015 09:26 AM)Cozzymodo Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 09:10 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This is from Cracked, and sometimes they are full of shit. But natural explanations for these paranormal experiences, are much easier to swallow than supernatural ones. Drinking Beverage

Seems Occam's razor-ish to me, which works for me. If we have natural explanations that work, why bother complicating the issue by using a creating/using a different realm of reality in your explanation?

Because rejecting the principle of parsimony is the only way that such beliefs can possibly be held.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2015, 11:30 AM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2015 11:46 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
I put that into the category of magic. For me, the possibility of ghosts is coupled with possibility for a soul, possibility of a soul is an indication of a transcendental world, which I do not believe in. Ghost stories are like bigfoot or UFO sightings in my opinion.....if you are looking for it hard enough, you will find it whether it exists or not. Also if one is of a superstitious nature, and swamp gas mixed with some light, or hallucinations driven by PTSD/sleep deprivation/ or mental illness, make someone think they see a ghost....they have now had a "personal experience" and convincing them they didn't see the ghost of dear Aunt Bethel, or that kid that died mysteriously 20 years ago is nigh impossible. I liken it to a "religious personal experience" ...what they did or didn't see, or think they heard/saw/or experienced may all be in their head or have a natural explanation, but getting them to admit that is ....challenging.


(17-08-2015 01:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The problem with using one brush to paint out both theism and "spooks":

If even one person's spiritual experience, ever, in all of human history, is real, than materialism is not the truth.

Whew, thanks goodness that has never happened!

Lets play your game:

If even one person's bigfoot experience, ever, in all of human history, is real, than skepticism is not the truth.

Rolleyes


(18-08-2015 08:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 01:02 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Well, it's a good thing that none of them are, then.

That is likely one of the more sweeping statements of special knowledge that I've yet encountered. I'm glad you and your time machine traveled to all parts of this world and this universe to all times and to all people, even reaching inside their heads and hearts to unearth their secrets--to show their is nothing non-materialist or spiritual that exists--which omniscience of course would make YOU God.

A correct, logical response to my statement would have been to admit that you are an agnostic atheist. Your obvious apatheism belies the truth (so-called) that TTA members know one cannot prove a universal negative.

I personally have had several encounters with spiritual entities including God and am calling baloney on you.

That is likely one of the more sweeping statements of special ignorance that I've yet encountered. Norrg has reached out to me and told me HE is the creator of all life. So BAAM. Just because there is zero proof for Norrg or god doesn't mean they don't exist, neither does it mean they exist.

It doesn't surprise me that you think god has spoken to you...the delusional and mad often hear voices.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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20-08-2015, 11:42 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(19-08-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You don't know what happens inside my mind.

Nor, apparently, do you. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(19-08-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You don't know what happens inside my mind.

Sadcryface
Ew.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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20-08-2015, 12:39 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
Consider

If I gotta accept "ghosts" as a thing - like a real thing - how come the world isn't more crowded with them? I mean, just in the past couple thousand years, there have been way more dead people than there are people currently alive. One would think we would be tripping over ghosts at every turn!

Is the ecto-plasmic air really so thick? I think it would feel like walking in gravy. Soul Gravy Blink
Dibs on new band name

And what about caveman ghosts? If I gotta accept ghosts then, I want a caveman ghost. Shy

Don't even get me started on cow, sheep, & goat ghosts!!

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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26-08-2015, 11:51 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(20-08-2015 09:06 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 07:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  HOWEVER, you ain't inside me (shudder) and are being about as condescending and arrogant as is humanly possible.

No, this is me being flippant. If you think that this is condescending, you're honestly rather sheltered, and I envy you.

(20-08-2015 07:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Brother, I don't know what's in your head or even whether you are a "die hard" atheist, a Poe or a born again Christian. You have no right (and no proof) to say whether or not I'm in touch with higher powers.

Well, yes, actually, I do, just as I have the right to dismiss the claim of someone who, say, thinks that they were kidnapped by aliens, or cursed by a witch.

Then I must object. What gives you the right to dismiss all truth claims de facto if they are spiritual in nature without first examining the evidence to weigh each case on its own merits? This was also Hume's error. When Nicodemus argued with other Pharisees about Jesus, he rebuked them, "Does our Law judge a man BEFORE it hears what he has to say?" The haughty atheist stance, "No, I never heard of X but it cannot possibly be true," leads to stereotypes about atheists. Stop it.

You are being an armchair judge not in the courtroom to hear the evidence. I became saved beginning with the possibility of God's existence, not its likelihood or even its plausibility. Repeating, you are not me, do not even know me, and can neither prove nor disprove I'm in touch with Jesus Christ. Flippancy or condescension notwithstanding, your remarks are uninformed. At least other atheists on this forum ask me to prove what I believe BEFORE condemning what I believe. I would never treat you in that way.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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26-08-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(20-08-2015 11:30 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I put that into the category of magic. For me, the possibility of ghosts is coupled with possibility for a soul, possibility of a soul is an indication of a transcendental world, which I do not believe in. Ghost stories are like bigfoot or UFO sightings in my opinion.....if you are looking for it hard enough, you will find it whether it exists or not. Also if one is of a superstitious nature, and swamp gas mixed with some light, or hallucinations driven by PTSD/sleep deprivation/ or mental illness, make someone think they see a ghost....they have now had a "personal experience" and convincing them they didn't see the ghost of dear Aunt Bethel, or that kid that died mysteriously 20 years ago is nigh impossible. I liken it to a "religious personal experience" ...what they did or didn't see, or think they heard/saw/or experienced may all be in their head or have a natural explanation, but getting them to admit that is ....challenging.


(17-08-2015 01:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The problem with using one brush to paint out both theism and "spooks":

If even one person's spiritual experience, ever, in all of human history, is real, than materialism is not the truth.

Whew, thanks goodness that has never happened!

Lets play your game:

If even one person's bigfoot experience, ever, in all of human history, is real, than skepticism is not the truth.

Rolleyes


(18-08-2015 08:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  That is likely one of the more sweeping statements of special knowledge that I've yet encountered. I'm glad you and your time machine traveled to all parts of this world and this universe to all times and to all people, even reaching inside their heads and hearts to unearth their secrets--to show their is nothing non-materialist or spiritual that exists--which omniscience of course would make YOU God.

A correct, logical response to my statement would have been to admit that you are an agnostic atheist. Your obvious apatheism belies the truth (so-called) that TTA members know one cannot prove a universal negative.

I personally have had several encounters with spiritual entities including God and am calling baloney on you.

That is likely one of the more sweeping statements of special ignorance that I've yet encountered. Norrg has reached out to me and told me HE is the creator of all life. So BAAM. Just because there is zero proof for Norrg or god doesn't mean they don't exist, neither does it mean they exist.

It doesn't surprise me that you think god has spoken to you...the delusional and mad often hear voices.

1. If even one person's claim about Big Foot is true, then many past claims about Big Foot are true. Skepticism is still possibly a viable stance.

2. I don't know this Norrg you speak of? Is he anything like the god or gods that most people who have ever lived not only believed in... but acted in their lives according to those beliefs? Because if Norrg is real, than many theists are correct, but all atheists, admittedly a small fraction of the population, are wrong. Would it bother you to find out that most people you know aren't wrong? That sounds a little like you have an emotional stance. You can accuse me of making an argumentum ad populum or you can admit that most people think you are absolutely incorrect.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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26-08-2015, 12:11 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(26-08-2015 11:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Then I must object. What gives you the right to dismiss all truth claims de facto if they are spiritual in nature without first examining the evidence to weigh each case on its own merits?

I have examined the evidence.

Or, rather, I haven't, because there is none.

(26-08-2015 11:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. If even one person's claim about Big Foot is true, then many past claims about Big Foot are true.

That does not follow.

And none of them are true regardless.

(26-08-2015 11:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You can accuse me of making an argumentum ad populum

We don't have to accuse. It's quite clear.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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26-08-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(26-08-2015 11:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 09:06 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No, this is me being flippant. If you think that this is condescending, you're honestly rather sheltered, and I envy you.


Well, yes, actually, I do, just as I have the right to dismiss the claim of someone who, say, thinks that they were kidnapped by aliens, or cursed by a witch.

Then I must object. What gives you the right to dismiss all truth claims de facto if they are spiritual in nature without first examining the evidence to weigh each case on its own merits? This was also Hume's error. When Nicodemus argued with other Pharisees about Jesus, he rebuked them, "Does our Law judge a man BEFORE it hears what he has to say?" The haughty atheist stance, "No, I never heard of X but it cannot possibly be true," leads to stereotypes about atheists. Stop it.

Claims that lack any objective evidence can be summarily dismissed.

Quote:You are being an armchair judge not in the courtroom to hear the evidence. I became saved beginning with the possibility of God's existence, not its likelihood or even its plausibility. Repeating, you are not me, do not even know me, and can neither prove nor disprove I'm in touch with Jesus Christ. Flippancy or condescension notwithstanding, your remarks are uninformed. At least other atheists on this forum ask me to prove what I believe BEFORE condemning what I believe. I would never treat you in that way.

Claims that lack any objective evidence can be summarily dismissed, they don't even make it into court.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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