But what about regular ghosts?
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27-08-2015, 04:01 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(27-08-2015 12:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 10:53 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If you think otherwise, feel free to present your case.

Present my case for what? Isn't it obvious I think otherwise?

Your case for ghosts, of course. That is, after all, what you scoffed at my dismissing. Or do you not actually have any evidence?

Quote:You have researched dozens of claims of bumps in the night and enhanced your skepticism? Is that helpful to you when researching the Bible?

"Helpful" is an odd choice of word, but the result is certainly the same, yes.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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28-08-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(27-08-2015 04:01 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 12:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Present my case for what? Isn't it obvious I think otherwise?

Your case for ghosts, of course. That is, after all, what you scoffed at my dismissing. Or do you not actually have any evidence?

Quote:You have researched dozens of claims of bumps in the night and enhanced your skepticism? Is that helpful to you when researching the Bible?

"Helpful" is an odd choice of word, but the result is certainly the same, yes.

Rather, I scoffed at your scoffing. Apparently, because you have investigated some UFOs--remember what that acronym represents--and some ghosts, you feel you hold a trump card over God. Christianity 101:

Some people are liars about the supernatural.
Some people are deceived about the supernatural and ascribe miracles and devils where there are none.
There are devils, angels and God; occasionally they step in to our time/space but not to overwhelm human free will--you are accountable to Jesus for atheism because the "devil can't make you do it"--you will experience the miraculous--or at least the providential--if you trust Christ but "God won't make you trust Him against your free will".

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-08-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(28-08-2015 09:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Rather, I scoffed at your scoffing. Apparently, because you have investigated some UFOs--remember what that acronym represents--and some ghosts, you feel you hold a trump card over God.

When have I ever claimed that?

UFOs, Bigfoot, and your god have nothing to do with one another, except in the broadest sense. They all crumble before rational examination, yes, but recognizing that aliens aren't actually probing our cows has nothing to do with my recognition that the Bible is a load of horse puckey.

I have no need of "trump cards". Your god collapses all on its own.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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28-08-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(28-08-2015 09:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  -----
--
There are devils, angels and God; occasionally they step in to our time/space but not to overwhelm human free will--you are accountable to Jesus for atheism because the "devil can't make you do it"--you will experience the miraculous--or at least the providential--if you trust Christ but "God won't make you trust Him against your free will".

Well then, this surely means you troll in favor of your Satan. Otherwise, you would not dick around with your God's plan for the atheist. Angel

Piss off from this place with your deceit and trickery, Qbert. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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28-08-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(28-08-2015 09:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... There are devils, angels and God ...

All with supernatural power, except the devils (plural) and angels have finite power (no more than 88 yottawatts sustained indefinitely per each devil or angel). But it's still supernatural power, something only a god can exert. Their existence constitutes polytheism.

How does one tell whether a miracle that only needed 54 terawatts for five minutes to enact was carried out by a devil or an angel or by the big fella? Some miracle that (like every possible natural occurrence) benefitted some and disadvantaged others, so that evaluating its "goodness" is inescapably a matter of who's doing the evaluating. Or would the distinction matter, since the "goodness" or "evil" are in the eyes of the beholders and the only salient fact is that the miracle was a case of supernatural intervention that could have come from one of an assortment of gods?

(28-08-2015 09:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... occasionally they step in to our time/space but not to overwhelm human free will ...

All that abundant power at these gods' fingertips yet so limited in application. They can do anything (that doesn't require more watts than their allotment) but only so long as it doesn't alter the outcome of someone's free will to undertake some action. Since any action undertaken by anyone most of the time has an influence on others, often interfering with someone else's intended outcome, I don't see how even a milliwatt of this vast power could be applied without modifying someone's intention somewhere, however miniscule.

Above I wondered how to distinguish which god produced a supernatural event (or whether the distinction actually mattered); here I wonder how would one distinguish a supernatural event from a natural one. What is a miracle?

No miracle can be identified by a single human mind. No single human mind can contain all the necessary information that would separate natural cause from unnatural cause. Worse, the human sensory apparatus and memory are horribly inaccurate, so even possessing sufficient information the evaluation itself would be faulty. Having some team of human minds do it encounters the same problem: limited intellectual and sensory capacity.

Finally, any new phenomenon will immediately be assessed by scientific observers as something natural that heretofore was only unforeseen. So far, in the entire history of science, that immediate assumption has proved correct. No requirement for supernatural cause has ever been found necessary or EVEN HYPOTHESIZED. Across centuries of scientific inquiry and depth of understanding that reaches to the edge of the universe that fact alone makes the supernatural something only ignorance would invoke.

An ignorance, apparently, so entrenched it thinks its polytheism is monotheism.
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04-09-2015, 01:34 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(28-08-2015 10:30 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 09:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... There are devils, angels and God ...

All with supernatural power, except the devils (plural) and angels have finite power (no more than 88 yottawatts sustained indefinitely per each devil or angel). But it's still supernatural power, something only a god can exert. Their existence constitutes polytheism.

How does one tell whether a miracle that only needed 54 terawatts for five minutes to enact was carried out by a devil or an angel or by the big fella? Some miracle that (like every possible natural occurrence) benefitted some and disadvantaged others, so that evaluating its "goodness" is inescapably a matter of who's doing the evaluating. Or would the distinction matter, since the "goodness" or "evil" are in the eyes of the beholders and the only salient fact is that the miracle was a case of supernatural intervention that could have come from one of an assortment of gods?

(28-08-2015 09:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... occasionally they step in to our time/space but not to overwhelm human free will ...

All that abundant power at these gods' fingertips yet so limited in application. They can do anything (that doesn't require more watts than their allotment) but only so long as it doesn't alter the outcome of someone's free will to undertake some action. Since any action undertaken by anyone most of the time has an influence on others, often interfering with someone else's intended outcome, I don't see how even a milliwatt of this vast power could be applied without modifying someone's intention somewhere, however miniscule.

Above I wondered how to distinguish which god produced a supernatural event (or whether the distinction actually mattered); here I wonder how would one distinguish a supernatural event from a natural one. What is a miracle?

No miracle can be identified by a single human mind. No single human mind can contain all the necessary information that would separate natural cause from unnatural cause. Worse, the human sensory apparatus and memory are horribly inaccurate, so even possessing sufficient information the evaluation itself would be faulty. Having some team of human minds do it encounters the same problem: limited intellectual and sensory capacity.

Finally, any new phenomenon will immediately be assessed by scientific observers as something natural that heretofore was only unforeseen. So far, in the entire history of science, that immediate assumption has proved correct. No requirement for supernatural cause has ever been found necessary or EVEN HYPOTHESIZED. Across centuries of scientific inquiry and depth of understanding that reaches to the edge of the universe that fact alone makes the supernatural something only ignorance would invoke.

An ignorance, apparently, so entrenched it thinks its polytheism is monotheism.

Angelic beings, like people, have finite powers. They are not gods, although Christianity 101 tells you that Satan would LOVE to have you take him for a god. The real problem: Atheists take themselves for gods, a sort of me, myself and I unholy trinity!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-09-2015, 02:04 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(04-09-2015 01:34 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Atheists take themselves for gods, a sort of me, myself and I unholy trinity!

[Image: mlfw10755_medium.jpg]

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-09-2015, 04:20 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(04-09-2015 01:34 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Angelic beings, like people, have finite powers. They are not gods, although Christianity 101 tells you that Satan would LOVE to have you take him for a god. The real problem: Atheists take themselves for gods, a sort of me, myself and I unholy trinity!

No, we take ourselves to be human beings. We don't believe in gods.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-09-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(04-09-2015 04:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 01:34 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Angelic beings, like people, have finite powers. They are not gods, although Christianity 101 tells you that Satan would LOVE to have you take him for a god. The real problem: Atheists take themselves for gods, a sort of me, myself and I unholy trinity!

No, we take ourselves to be human beings. We don't believe in gods.

On what basis, then, are you the primary human being you look to for wisdom? I've yet to meet an atheist who followed anyone closely above their own selves.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-09-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: But what about regular ghosts?
(09-09-2015 12:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  On what basis, then, are you the primary human being you look to for wisdom? I've yet to meet an atheist who followed anyone closely above their own selves.

So what?

No, really. So what? Are you stating that atheists, who believe in no gods, should therefore be venerating other humans?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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