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11-07-2012, 04:04 PM
RE: Buy American
(11-07-2012 09:50 AM)Filox Wrote:  Not only Turks, half of Balkan works in Germany. At least half of Croatia is in Germany, working and living.
Indeed. It is in my opinion that Ohio is not too educated about the events in Europe.

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12-07-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: Buy American
(08-07-2012 11:37 PM)itsacow Wrote:  Earmuffs, the only flaw with your economic model is that companies can not produce cheaper goods. They pay higher salaries than outsourced jobs. So you have to raise the price to make up for the money lost.
No that is part of the model.
Efficiency.
If an American company has to pay $10 for workers and a Chinese company can make the same product for $2 in wages and $2 in shipping, then the Chinese company is more efficient and so will beat the US competition, or at least make more money.

But it still stands, then say if that US company has 10employees, they're now out of a job and so go find work in a more efficient market place.

It's all about efficiency and allocation of resources.

Quote: The first concept to consider is "comparative advantage". When countries
trade because of comparative advantage both countries are better off.
Wealth is created in both countries.



Second is Marginal Utility relative to Price. What your missing is that
when you buy the cheaper foreign "good enough" product you have
additional money to purchase other products and services, some of those
are local. Your "Total Utility from Consumption" is increased.



Third. The US is the 3rd largest exporter in the world. China is #1, Germany #2, Japan #4.

Foreign trade is difficult for people to understand. American
manufacturing jobs are not being exported overseas. They are vanishing
because of automation. In 1900 98% of people worked to grow food at some
capacity. Now it's 2.4%. Where did all these unemployed farm workers
go? Manufacturing output had steadily increased while total employment
has fallen. Where are all the manufacturing workers going to work?

We will have a 15,000 shortfall of doctors in the next 10 years. The
average age of a doc is 55. We just put 30,000,000 people on the
insurance rolls. The demand will go even higher for health services.



We need more IT people. Half of Silicon Valley are foreign engineers on H1-B visas.

70% of all scientific patents in the US are currently awarded to foreign
nationals living here. Many are students on student visas who will
leave and start companies in their home countries.



It's easy to see that the future is quite good for high tech and medical. We have plenty of jobs for the right skills.

The problem is we keep loaning money to people to get History and
Philosophy degrees from private schools. They get out with $90,000 in
loans and can't find work. Duh! Welcome to OWS.
I see someone else took ECON101 last year. Tongue, yeah all the terms slip my mind. Commercial Law/Taxation major, just took the compulsory economics papers.

That is a good point about automation. It's good though, less laborers more skilled specialized work force.

I hear you about History and Philosophy majors, I'd just like to add Art to that list. Mind the risk of sounding a bit like a douche, but total waste of time and money. You are never gonna get a job in those fields let alone one that would make the massive college fees worth while.

I don't know how you guys do it but here the government pays for your university fees and you pay them back (interest free), and at the moment the debt continues and the government just isn't seeing a return on it at all.
I think part of it is just numbers. So many people go to university now, it's nothing like it use to be. Rather then "wow you got a degree" it's, "oh.. you don't have a degree..".
The more of something you have the less its value.

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15-07-2012, 04:37 PM
RE: Buy American
(12-07-2012 10:43 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(08-07-2012 11:37 PM)itsacow Wrote:  Earmuffs, the only flaw with your economic model is that companies can not produce cheaper goods. They pay higher salaries than outsourced jobs. So you have to raise the price to make up for the money lost.
No that is part of the model.
Efficiency.
If an American company has to pay $10 for workers and a Chinese company can make the same product for $2 in wages and $2 in shipping, then the Chinese company is more efficient and so will beat the US competition, or at least make more money.

But it still stands, then say if that US company has 10employees, they're now out of a job and so go find work in a more efficient market place.

It's all about efficiency and allocation of resources.

Quote: The first concept to consider is "comparative advantage". When countries
trade because of comparative advantage both countries are better off.
Wealth is created in both countries.



Second is Marginal Utility relative to Price. What your missing is that
when you buy the cheaper foreign "good enough" product you have
additional money to purchase other products and services, some of those
are local. Your "Total Utility from Consumption" is increased.



Third. The US is the 3rd largest exporter in the world. China is #1, Germany #2, Japan #4.

Foreign trade is difficult for people to understand. American
manufacturing jobs are not being exported overseas. They are vanishing
because of automation. In 1900 98% of people worked to grow food at some
capacity. Now it's 2.4%. Where did all these unemployed farm workers
go? Manufacturing output had steadily increased while total employment
has fallen. Where are all the manufacturing workers going to work?

We will have a 15,000 shortfall of doctors in the next 10 years. The
average age of a doc is 55. We just put 30,000,000 people on the
insurance rolls. The demand will go even higher for health services.



We need more IT people. Half of Silicon Valley are foreign engineers on H1-B visas.

70% of all scientific patents in the US are currently awarded to foreign
nationals living here. Many are students on student visas who will
leave and start companies in their home countries.



It's easy to see that the future is quite good for high tech and medical. We have plenty of jobs for the right skills.

The problem is we keep loaning money to people to get History and
Philosophy degrees from private schools. They get out with $90,000 in
loans and can't find work. Duh! Welcome to OWS.
I see someone else took ECON101 last year. Tongue, yeah all the terms slip my mind. Commercial Law/Taxation major, just took the compulsory economics papers.

That is a good point about automation. It's good though, less laborers more skilled specialized work force.

I hear you about History and Philosophy majors, I'd just like to add Art to that list. Mind the risk of sounding a bit like a douche, but total waste of time and money. You are never gonna get a job in those fields let alone one that would make the massive college fees worth while.

I don't know how you guys do it but here the government pays for your university fees and you pay them back (interest free), and at the moment the debt continues and the government just isn't seeing a return on it at all.
I think part of it is just numbers. So many people go to university now, it's nothing like it use to be. Rather then "wow you got a degree" it's, "oh.. you don't have a degree..".
The more of something you have the less its value.
Your point on college in the US is spot on. The BA/BS is the new Highschool degree. We need more technical people and less with BAs in philosophy. We have enough college degreed waiters and dish washers. Germany and Japan have the top 10% going to the University, the US has 30%. That may be the right number. They also have the majority going to tech school for 2 more years. This is what the US must do in the future. A 2 year degreed computer programmer is ready to go right into a company and be effective.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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15-07-2012, 04:51 PM
RE: Buy American
(15-07-2012 04:37 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(12-07-2012 10:43 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  No that is part of the model.
Efficiency.
If an American company has to pay $10 for workers and a Chinese company can make the same product for $2 in wages and $2 in shipping, then the Chinese company is more efficient and so will beat the US competition, or at least make more money.

But it still stands, then say if that US company has 10employees, they're now out of a job and so go find work in a more efficient market place.

It's all about efficiency and allocation of resources.

I see someone else took ECON101 last year. Tongue, yeah all the terms slip my mind. Commercial Law/Taxation major, just took the compulsory economics papers.

That is a good point about automation. It's good though, less laborers more skilled specialized work force.

I hear you about History and Philosophy majors, I'd just like to add Art to that list. Mind the risk of sounding a bit like a douche, but total waste of time and money. You are never gonna get a job in those fields let alone one that would make the massive college fees worth while.

I don't know how you guys do it but here the government pays for your university fees and you pay them back (interest free), and at the moment the debt continues and the government just isn't seeing a return on it at all.
I think part of it is just numbers. So many people go to university now, it's nothing like it use to be. Rather then "wow you got a degree" it's, "oh.. you don't have a degree..".
The more of something you have the less its value.
Your point on college in the US is spot on. The BA/BS is the new Highschool degree. We need more technical people and less with BAs in philosophy. We have enough college degreed waiters and dish washers. Germany and Japan have the top 10% going to the University, the US has 30%. That may be the right number. They also have the majority going to tech school for 2 more years. This is what the US must do in the future. A 2 year degreed computer programmer is ready to go right into a company and be effective.
Well, yes and no. More no than yes. A university education enriches one's life. You seem to want to make a university into a trade school. We need both, but they are not the same things.

As a software engineer, I can tell you that a 2-year programming diploma is not going to make someone a good software engineer. Knowledge and thinking skills beyond how to code is necessary to solve real problems.

I will hire someone with a BS in math or science who has done some programming ahead of someone with a computer science diploma.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-07-2012, 05:14 PM
RE: Buy American
Well, there are unpleasant snags with buying things from China, and I try to avoid them now, which turns out to be very difficult.

For instance, there were some dog treats made of dried chicken that were made with bad meat and turned out to be killing dogs slowly. I happened to be using these as rewards in training.

When I found out about it, I tried to find treats made in the USA since the quality control on foods is a lot better here. There were NONE. Even the ones distributed by large US companies were made in China. You can go to your local supermarket and all dog treats there, regardless of the company on the label, are made in China. I ended up buying more expensive products that were not meat (and one really should feed dogs as little non-meat product as possible), but they were made and sold locally by a lady who baked them in her oven. At least my dogs won't die eating those.

Then I saw this little thing in a waitingroom - an air moisturizer that was attractive and sent what looked like plumes of smoke into the air. It was a zen type thing, very calming and relaxing and good for the lungs.

So I set out to find one I liked the looks of and that was the right size and ordered it online. (No such thing in local shops). Well, it came missing a stupid little part that was necessary to stabilize the unit. There turned out to be no way to get the part. They made the damn thing in China and they were not going to ship some stupid little part they forgot to include. Eventually I got my money back.

You won't see me buying chinese anymore, I want to buy things that were made in countries that have better quality control and that stand behind their product.

And when it comes to food, I buy as much local as possible. If I am going to stick it in my mouth, I make sure I know who grew/made it for me.

Yes, the economy is global anymore. And that is both good and bad. There is still plenty reason to buy local. If those dog bisquits are bad for some reason, I have recourse. And I am pretty sure that they are not going to be bad, because that lady depends on her local customers and her name depends on it.

As far as the references to the German economy go, the difference is responsibility. Seems that Americans are never responsible for their actions, if they spill hot coffee in their lap, they sue the coffeeshop because the coffee was too hot. Germans play the blaming game too, most people in the world do. It seems to be human nature. But it's a matter of degree. There are a lot of people in the US who feel that they are responsible for nothing and entitled to everything. And that is definitely bad for the economy.

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15-07-2012, 07:15 PM
RE: Buy American
(15-07-2012 04:37 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(12-07-2012 10:43 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  No that is part of the model.
Efficiency.
If an American company has to pay $10 for workers and a Chinese company can make the same product for $2 in wages and $2 in shipping, then the Chinese company is more efficient and so will beat the US competition, or at least make more money.

But it still stands, then say if that US company has 10employees, they're now out of a job and so go find work in a more efficient market place.

It's all about efficiency and allocation of resources.

I see someone else took ECON101 last year. Tongue, yeah all the terms slip my mind. Commercial Law/Taxation major, just took the compulsory economics papers.

That is a good point about automation. It's good though, less laborers more skilled specialized work force.

I hear you about History and Philosophy majors, I'd just like to add Art to that list. Mind the risk of sounding a bit like a douche, but total waste of time and money. You are never gonna get a job in those fields let alone one that would make the massive college fees worth while.

I don't know how you guys do it but here the government pays for your university fees and you pay them back (interest free), and at the moment the debt continues and the government just isn't seeing a return on it at all.
I think part of it is just numbers. So many people go to university now, it's nothing like it use to be. Rather then "wow you got a degree" it's, "oh.. you don't have a degree..".
The more of something you have the less its value.
Your point on college in the US is spot on. The BA/BS is the new Highschool degree. We need more technical people and less with BAs in philosophy. We have enough college degreed waiters and dish washers. Germany and Japan have the top 10% going to the University, the US has 30%. That may be the right number. They also have the majority going to tech school for 2 more years. This is what the US must do in the future. A 2 year degreed computer programmer is ready to go right into a company and be effective.
Yea exactly. I think part of the problem is that it's taught at a young age, all the way through school, that you need a college degree to be successful in life. And the colleges know this and market it as such, "come here and get a golden ticket to a 100K a year job". So people go, they pick interest topics rather then practicality topics, all these art degrees majoring in Philosophy or Museum Curator, rather then something practical like an IT job, or a accounting major.

Now I'm in no way saying people should pursue their dreams and shit, I mean hell I am I want to own my own business so that is why I am here to get the required knowledge to do so, BUT I think children these days are just so wrapped up in cotton wool , encouraged far to much. They're spoon fed praise all day long about what would be classed as an average achievement but everyone makes it out to be the best thing since sliced bread. And so when these kids leave their high school, which is designed as a gateway for college (or at least the last couple years), they go after things that they are only average in because they believe they are absolutely fantastic at it because they've been spoon fed all this constant praise.

So what this means is you have this flood of people fed all this praise so they believe they can be the best philosopher in the world by their teachers and parents and stuff, and then you have the universities advertising "come here, get the golden ticket to high payed jobs". It's a double hitter. So now there's all these people who believe they are absolutely fantastic, but in reality are average at best and so it effectively "dumbs down" the quality of the degree.

This is why employers don't care about grades and the most important thing in getting a job is past experience, how you present yourself and come across. It's about standing out and quite frankly, a degree just doesn't make you stand out any more.


I think some degrees still have merit, Law degrees and Doctor degrees are really good because they're hard, they weed out the "average" people from the truly talented people. All degrees should be like that.

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21-07-2012, 05:34 PM
RE: Buy American
My Panasonic works pretty well. I have nothing wrong with buying Japanese.



They make more efficient fuel cars too. Always a plus.
(29-06-2012 12:37 AM)Filox Wrote:  Really? I didn't know that about Japanese products. Today if you can get any item that is Made in Japan, you know you have the best possible quality you can buy.
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14-09-2012, 01:28 AM
RE: Buy American
It is not as simple as that. 90% of the things available are made in china or one of the other cheap labor countries. Even the things they claim are made here, all the parts are made in a cheaper country, shipped here, and assembled by machines, all so they can put a made in the usa sticker on it. The terrible thing is that most of the things I see a made in usa logo on are sold in the dollar store near me.
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14-09-2012, 01:46 AM
RE: Buy American
(14-09-2012 01:28 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  It is not as simple as that. 90% of the things available are made in china or one of the other cheap labor countries. Even the things they claim are made here, all the parts are made in a cheaper country, shipped here, and assembled by machines, all so they can put a made in the usa sticker on it. The terrible thing is that most of the things I see a made in usa logo on are sold in the dollar store near me.

Why the heck did you bump this?

And what's your point? Did you not read the replies?

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