Buzz word.
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04-02-2012, 08:24 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 10:43 PM by Mr Woof.)
Buzz word.
Atheist, like "God" is a buzz word that needs super extensive elaboration.

No religion could understand the alleged cosmic perfection of "God" without locking that phenomenon into a static position.A locked in "God" would surely lack the generally required attributes of the model generally glorified.

Converversely, some atheists, by denying the possibility of supernatural phenomena also lock themselves into an overly rigid position.

'I cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruce problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.' Charles Darwin.
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04-02-2012, 09:28 PM
RE: Buzz word.
(04-02-2012 08:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Atheist, like "God" is a buzz word that needs super extensive elaboration.

No religion could understand the alleged cosmic perfection of "God" without locking that phenomenon into a static position.A locked in "God" would surely lack the generally required attributes of the model generally glorified.

Converversely, some atheists, by denying the possibility of suernatural phenomena also lock themselves into an overly rigid position.

'I cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruce problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.' Charles Darwin.

I agree. Then there are some of us to whom the question of a God either way, is completely irrelevant. Wink

When I reach to the edge of the universe, I do so knowing that along some paths of cosmic discovery, there are times when, at least for now, one must be content to love the questions themselves. ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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05-02-2012, 12:22 PM
RE: Buzz word.
(04-02-2012 08:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Converversely, some atheists, by denying the possibility of supernatural phenomena also lock themselves into an overly rigid position.

The expression "supernatural phenomena" is an oxymoron.

If it is a phenomenon then it is natural.

If it isn't then it is fantasy. Big Grin

For quibblers: definition of 'phenomenon' is:

Quote:A phenomenon (from Greek φαινόμενoν), plural phenomena, is any observable occurrence.[1] Phenomena are often, but not always, understood as 'appearances' or 'experiences'. These are themselves sometimes understood as involving qualia.

The term came into its modern philosophical usage through Immanuel Kant, who contrasted it with noumenon (for which he used the term Ding an sich, or "thing-in-itself"), which, in contrast to phenomena, are not directly accessible to observation. Kant was heavily influenced by Leibniz in this part of his philosophy, in which phenomenon and noumenon serve as interrelated technical terms.
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05-02-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Buzz word.
(05-02-2012 12:22 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 08:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Converversely, some atheists, by denying the possibility of supernatural phenomena also lock themselves into an overly rigid position.

The expression "supernatural phenomena" is an oxymoron.

If it is a phenomenon then it is natural.

If it isn't then it is fantasy. Big Grin

For quibblers: definition of 'phenomenon' is:

Quote:A phenomenon (from Greek φαινόμενoν), plural phenomena, is any observable occurrence.[1] Phenomena are often, but not always, understood as 'appearances' or 'experiences'. These are themselves sometimes understood as involving qualia.

The term came into its modern philosophical usage through Immanuel Kant, who contrasted it with noumenon (for which he used the term Ding an sich, or "thing-in-itself"), which, in contrast to phenomena, are not directly accessible to observation. Kant was heavily influenced by Leibniz in this part of his philosophy, in which phenomenon and noumenon serve as interrelated technical terms.

Exactly. The supernatural excludes itself from existence by its own definition.
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05-02-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: Buzz word.
(04-02-2012 08:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Converversely, some atheists, by denying the possibility of supernatural phenomena also lock themselves into an overly rigid position.

"Supernatural" just means not yet explicable. There's all sorts of supernatural shit going on given that interpretation. Wink

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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05-02-2012, 08:26 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2012 08:36 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Buzz word.
(05-02-2012 12:22 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 08:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Converversely, some atheists, by denying the possibility of supernatural phenomena also lock themselves into an overly rigid position.

The expression "supernatural phenomena" is an oxymoron.

If it is a phenomenon then it is natural.

If it isn't then it is fantasy. Big Grin

For quibblers: definition of 'phenomenon' is:

Sorry Zat but I beg to differ.
There is a fallacy in logic known as the natural fallacy.For example the purveyors of health food talk about it being natural; natural being suggestive of good, when, in fact natural things may be higly toxic in terms of physical and mental consumption.

The fact that phenomena does not reach scienctific criteria,IMO,LEAVES 'SUPERNATURAL' a valid description for something potentially
'out there'.....Apologies for infringing your space below..... vAs for Kant's noumenal world I don't see this as contrary to my position.
V also re the word "fantasy" this word tends to connate stupidity rather than possible potentiality.

There is another fallacy in logic, admittedly not a popular one, known as the Nirvana Fallacy which claims that insufficient evidence should not render contemplative consideration of higly questionable issues............Tongue V
v
v
v

Quote:A phenomenon (from Greek φαινόμενoν), plural phenomena, is any observable occurrence.[1] Phenomena are often, but not always, understood as 'appearances' or 'experiences'. These are themselves sometimes understood as involving qualia.

The term came into its modern philosophical usage through Immanuel Kant, who contrasted it with noumenon (for which he used the term Ding an sich, or "thing-in-itself"), which, in contrast to phenomena, are not directly accessible to observation. Kant was heavily influenced by Leibniz in this part of his philosophy, in which phenomenon and noumenon serve as interrelated technical terms.
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05-02-2012, 08:55 PM
RE: Buzz word.
Mr Woof, my response is based on the definition of "phenomenon" as I quoted: "A phenomenon ... is any observable occurrence".

The operative word is "Observable". That implies observation directly by our senses or indirectly by our instruments.

If neither of these occur, then we have no data to indicate existence or otherwise, we are left with pure speculation which may, or may not, have anything to do with observable reality (the only kind of reality we can talk about without wandering into invention).

I used the word "supernatural" as meaning "not part of nature" or, more precisely, not part of reality.

If we accept these two definitions (of 'phenomenon' and of 'supernatural'), then the expression I argued with: "supernatural phenomena" is, indeed and oxymoron.

Now, if you redefine either or both of these words, then, of course, it could mean anything we want it to mean. Tongue
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06-02-2012, 12:24 AM
RE: Buzz word.
(05-02-2012 08:55 PM)Zat Wrote:  Mr Woof, my response is based on the definition of "phenomenon" as I quoted: "A phenomenon ... is any observable occurrence".

The operative word is "Observable". That implies observation directly by our senses or indirectly by our instruments.

If neither of these occur, then we have no data to indicate existence or otherwise, we are left with pure speculation which may, or may not, have anything to do with observable reality (the only kind of reality we can talk about without wandering into invention).

I used the word "supernatural" as meaning "not part of nature" or, more precisely, not part of reality.

If we accept these two definitions (of 'phenomenon' and of 'supernatural'), then the expression I argued with: "supernatural phenomena" is, indeed and oxymoron.

Now, if you redefine either or both of these words, then, of course, it could mean anything we want it to mean. Tongue

Hi Zat.
I appreciate your position; I am not overly heavy into dictionary definitions.
Most people, based on my experience, will agree with you, and yes 'it' , arguably, could mean anything.

I justify my position by utilizing the word 'potential', not to denigrate scientific method in any heavy sense, but to leave the existential door minimally ajar, for ponderers such as myself.

Perhaps its best we agree to disagree on this one............Wink
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06-02-2012, 06:02 AM
RE: Buzz word.
(06-02-2012 12:24 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I appreciate your position; I am not overly heavy into dictionary definitions.

Mr Woof, I don't know how you can avoid definitions?

If I tell you that there may be a good case made for termeszetfeletti jelenseg, then you will ask me what the hell I mean by those two words?

In essence you are asking for definitions.

Once I told you that they mean 'supernatural' and 'phenomenon' (in Hungarian) then, if you are still not sure, you will ask me to tell you exactly what I mean by those two words?

Definitions are an integral part of the conceptualizing process of the human brain, regardless whether we do it 'officially' or casually, we still need to be able to explain to each other what we mean!

Having said that, I have no problem with "agreeing to disagree"!

It is my best thing! Big Grin
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06-02-2012, 06:54 AM
RE: Buzz word.
(04-02-2012 08:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  No religion could understand the alleged cosmic perfection of "God" without locking that phenomenon into a static position.A locked in "God" would surely lack the generally required attributes of the model generally glorified.

The wonders of the known galaxy/universe.......the entity that is everything.......endlessly infinte........described by a human perspective allways make me laugh. Like we are the center and most important things Rolleyes

With regards to supernatural....well there has been times when I have been proven wrong or had my beliefs changed.....this to me has taught me that I need to try and make my rigid beliefs system a little bit more flexible to account for new information.

I try not to be biased on things but I know I am......I am also aware that with me being biased there poses a risk of me discounting something that could be entirley true....I could be seeing the "truth" yet I decide to dismiss it.

Obviously there tends to be a need for proof of things otherwise you are going down the "faith" road and that is something that I unfortunatly lack at the moment.

A few other favourite "buzz words" of mine that we all say we understand and loosely can agree with but get diluted by our own definitions are.

Anarchy.
Democracy.
Emotions (love, hate, fear, etc etc)
Time.
Truth.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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