By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
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04-04-2012, 09:49 PM
By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
A God who exists outside of time, and a God who exists outside of space is often the God described by Christians. Well here is an interesting thought, what do we constitute reality as? I say we generally define reality by space and time. So a God who exists outside of these is ultimately existing outside of reality. So even if he did exist, he wouldn't exist within reality, which means he doesn't exist still.
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05-04-2012, 05:07 AM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
Nice one. Simple, yet nice...

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05-04-2012, 07:21 AM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
(04-04-2012 09:49 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  A God who exists outside of time, and a God who exists outside of space is often the God described by Christians. Well here is an interesting thought, what do we constitute reality as? I say we generally define reality by space and time. So a God who exists outside of these is ultimately existing outside of reality. So even if he did exist, he wouldn't exist within reality, which means he doesn't exist still.
That's only if you believe that definition of reality.

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05-04-2012, 10:25 AM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
I kind of like this argument. It's similar to the one I make about God being the creator of the universe from nothing... what exactly do you think his role was in making something out of nothing? Even if it's true that he was present at the universe's beginning, that doesn't prove that he facilitated it in any way.

Of course, in response to your argument, the Christian would make the argument that God is everywhere, and that includes within space/time as well as outside of it. But that still doesn't solve the problem of him pre-existing existence.

There could be a serious flaw in your argument, but at first glance it seems pretty enticing. Nicely done. It's at least as strong as the philosophical arguments such as Kalam Cosmological.

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05-04-2012, 12:43 PM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
(04-04-2012 09:49 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  A God who exists outside of time, and a God who exists outside of space is often the God described by Christians. Well here is an interesting thought, what do we constitute reality as? I say we generally define reality by space and time. So a God who exists outside of these is ultimately existing outside of reality. So even if he did exist, he wouldn't exist within reality, which means he doesn't exist still.
We theoretically live in a multi-verse, so spacetime other than our own would exist.
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05-04-2012, 01:09 PM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
As with all concepts, the concept of god exists as a concept but not as a physical system within existence.

Same as, for example a circle.
The concept of a circle exists as a concept but not as a physical system within existence. Hence it exists outside of space and outside of time. But in terms of its physical existence, well, if I asked you how big the circle is, you would tell me that it is as big as I want it to be, that it can be any size. If I asked you of its location in space time, you would tell me that it can be anywhere and everywhere. If I asked you if I could destroy the circle, you would say that the power of circle to resist my attempt to destroy it are unlimited, hence it is all powerful.
So the circle concept is eternal, it is perfect, it is omnipresent and omnipotent. This is the nature of all concepts.

Religions simply promote certain concepts into existence, without their believers requiring proof. These concepts are:
God
Soul
Free Will
Sin
Good
Evil
Morality
Heaven
Hell

They are eternal, intangible and immeasurable just like the circle, or square, or rectangle, or numbers or trigonometry, or calculus, or ...
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05-04-2012, 01:10 PM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
It's my go-to argument when I have a headache or I don't want to offend the person who is trying to have this sort of conversation with me. The typical theist would have a problem seeing through such a simple construction (otherwise they probably wouldn't be a theist, minus a few outlyers who are exceptionally smart and it's questionable how they have managed faith).
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05-04-2012, 05:55 PM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
I like your go to argument very much so, I may borrow/steal it lol

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05-04-2012, 06:05 PM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
(04-04-2012 09:49 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  A God who exists outside of time, and a God who exists outside of space is often the God described by Christians. Well here is an interesting thought, what do we constitute reality as? I say we generally define reality by space and time. So a God who exists outside of these is ultimately existing outside of reality. So even if he did exist, he wouldn't exist within reality, which means he doesn't exist still.
The God force could exist outside our secular reality and still impinge upon it in ways unknown to us,

WE cannot disprove subtle cosmic phenomena "out there" good bad and indifferent, simply because science supposes that all must be scientifically science based. There could be, who knows, systems out there, trancending the limitations of both science and religion.
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05-04-2012, 06:20 PM
RE: By definition, the Christian God cannot exist.
(04-04-2012 09:49 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  A God who exists outside of time, and a God who exists outside of space is often the God described by Christians. Well here is an interesting thought, what do we constitute reality as? I say we generally define reality by space and time. So a God who exists outside of these is ultimately existing outside of reality. So even if he did exist, he wouldn't exist within reality, which means he doesn't exist still.


Except that's backwards.

1. Any way you define "existence" requires (space)-time. So saying something "exists" outside of spacetime is meaningless.

2. The assumption that "reality" IS spacetime for all universes, (or the same dimensions exist in other universes "outside" this universe) has no evidence for it.

Existence, in any way we use that word, requires spacetime. There is no evidence it exists other than this universe, (right now). There is some evidence that some other dimensions may exist, other than spacetime, in THIS universe. There is NO evidence for what dimensions exist in others, or outside this one, (yet).

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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