By the Grace of God ...
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25-05-2017, 11:39 PM
By the Grace of God ...
What the fuck does it mean when, in an event where people are badly injured or killed, like when there's a horrific traffic accident, or a house fire, or an earthquake, or some lunatic decides to blow up people or mow them down with their vehicle, or whatever, the survivors, doctors and others claim that it was by the grace of god that so-and-so survived? Where was the grace of god before the event occurred? Why did it happen in the first place if the grace of god protects people and circumvents lethal situations? Is god like sitting back, watching the horror show and carnage for amusement, then finally says, 'Ok. Enough. I'll intervene now.' ?
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26-05-2017, 12:04 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
Stupid people say stupid shit all the time. The particular phrase you cited has the added baggage of being incredibly insensitive to the families of those who were not so "blessed" by fucking god.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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26-05-2017, 12:18 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(25-05-2017 11:39 PM)TheBear Wrote:  What the fuck does it mean when, in an event where people are badly injured or killed, like when there's a horrific traffic accident, or a house fire, or an earthquake, or some lunatic decides to blow up people or mow them down with their vehicle, or whatever, the survivors, doctors and others claim that it was by the grace of god that so-and-so survived? Where was the grace of god before the event occurred? Why did it happen in the first place if the grace of god protects people and circumvents lethal situations? Is god like sitting back, watching the horror show and carnage for amusement, then finally says, 'Ok. Enough. I'll intervene now.' ?

The basic rule is this:

Everything good, credit goes to God.

Everything bad, is either God punishing someone, or someone needs to turn to God, or it's the devil, or whatever.

"Good" and "bad" are in the eye of the beholder, of course.

So lots of death and destruction? SATAN'S INTRODUCTION OF ORIGINAL SIN HAS CORRUPTED THE WORLD INTO A PLACE OF PAIN, SUFFERING, AND DEATH!

A rare and lucky survivor? TRULY GOD IS GREAT!

Trump wins the presidency and you were for him? GOD PLACED TRUMP INTO POWER AND HE WILL WORK GOD'S WILL UPON THIS NATION AND THE WORLD!

If you were against him? THIS NATION HAS TURNED ITS BACK ON GOD AND ELECTED THE ANTICHRIST!

It's a basic division that lots of people are taught to do from very early childhood, to the point where it becomes automatic and unthinking.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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26-05-2017, 04:38 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
It's just making sure you don't piss off the cosmic serial killer so that it doesn't come after you next time Dodgy

When you beat a dog (or a child) their whole life, they grow up thinking there's something deeply wrong with them and they deserve all the beatings they get, and are thus incredibly, grovellingly grateful, when you only knock them around a bit and don't beat them up so bad they end up a bloody heap on the floor.

On the other hand, I am yet again giving people way more credit than they deserve, probably, and it's yet another example of religionists' utter egotism and conviction that they are oh-so-special and that they deserve to be saved (quite a few do believe that those who weren't, deserved it to. Hell, I've bitched here more times than I can count about a special brand of hateful stupidity they have here, called espiritismo, which is like a vile concoction, that's taken the ugliest bits of xtianity and karma. So yeah, if you're gangraped by soldiers and left to bleed to death - you chose it in a previous life Censored )

Fuck, it's too early in the morning for me to get myself this angry Angry


(18-10-2016 07:55 AM)Vera Wrote:  "It seemed intended by the blessed providence of God that I should be blind all my life, and I thank him for the dispensation. If perfect earthly sight were offered me tomorrow I would not accept it. I might not have sung hymns to the praise of God if I had been distracted by the beau¬tiful and interesting things about me.”, Fanny Crosby.

While I still find this as shudder-worthy, as when I first came across it, I think it would make the perfect epigraph for Ted Chiang’s Hell is the Absence of God, a rather interesting take on the mental gymnastics religious people have to resort to in order to explain why bad things happen to good people... as well as the infinitely worse ones of why good things have happened to them, because they are so special and beloved by the good lord above. I swear, I once heard someone tell the story of how they were in Indonesia at the time of the Xmas tsunami and because someone from their group had forgotten their towel, they had to go back to their hotel and were thus spared, praise the Lawd. Which she did – proudly and beyond repulsively thanked god for choosing her over the thousands who died (obviously, infinitely less deserving than her). As you can probably tell, I’m still pissed

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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26-05-2017, 05:04 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(25-05-2017 11:39 PM)TheBear Wrote:  What the fuck does it mean when, in an event where people are badly injured or killed, like when there's a horrific traffic accident, or a house fire, or an earthquake, or some lunatic decides to blow up people or mow them down with their vehicle, or whatever, the survivors, doctors and others claim that it was by the grace of god that so-and-so survived? Where was the grace of god before the event occurred? Why did it happen in the first place if the grace of god protects people and circumvents lethal situations? Is god like sitting back, watching the horror show and carnage for amusement, then finally says, 'Ok. Enough. I'll intervene now.' ?

It's an unthinking platitude in obeisance to a vague notion of god, of course it completely falls apart when you think about it, it immediately points to an unjust, capricious god who is a moral monster if their platitude was actually a descriptor of how this god functions.

It also completely mirrors what we would expect of basic random chance. This isn't really a trait you want any god to duplicate.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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26-05-2017, 05:06 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
I hate that phrase. Also hate it when people use it as a way to humble-brag while empathizing with the unfortunate. See some random homeless person on the street? Solemn face, reach into pocket, modestly intone "there, but for the grace of God, go I." So that powerful, "good" God lets many humans live lives of pain and deprivation, just so that believers can demonstrate they deserve heaven by buying someone a sandwich.

I mean, my response to this situation would be to lecture fucking God every day about His responsibilities to the creatures He created and demand that He be accountable. "Hi, God. I'll buy 10 extra sandwiches today; how about You eradicate pediatric cancer, mmkay?"
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26-05-2017, 05:14 AM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2017 05:46 AM by mordant.)
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(25-05-2017 11:39 PM)TheBear Wrote:  What the fuck does it mean when, in an event where people are badly injured or killed, like when there's a horrific traffic accident, or a house fire, or an earthquake, or some lunatic decides to blow up people or mow them down with their vehicle, or whatever, the survivors, doctors and others claim that it was by the grace of god that so-and-so survived? Where was the grace of god before the event occurred? Why did it happen in the first place if the grace of god protects people and circumvents lethal situations? Is god like sitting back, watching the horror show and carnage for amusement, then finally says, 'Ok. Enough. I'll intervene now.' ?
It reflects that arrogance and self-absorption of Christianity under cover of faux humility and gratitude. They never seem to make the connection that god did NOT see fit to spare others in that situation, and/or daily fails to spare others in similar situations.

This vector of infection for this particular sub-meme is the teaching that "all glory" must reflexively go to the deity for anything good, and that anything bad is because of sin / human free will / that nature itself is fallen, not just humanity. That last bit ties in with asceticism, the notion that sin is a thing-in-itself that has become lodged in material things and "the flesh" and can only be totally escaped through death.

So these ejaculations are in part a spasm of relief that the naturally depraved and calamitous state of nature and of humanity has passed you over. I think, though no believer is apt to admit it, that it's also a tacit acknowledgment that this "passing over" or "sparing" is random and ineffable and therefore indistinguishable from random happenstance.
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26-05-2017, 05:28 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
Don't let's forget, if bad things happen to manifestly blameless people, like kids, then God is testing you. Like he's evaluating a new fan for his computer. Of course if you fail the test then those kids died for nothing Dodgy

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-05-2017, 05:47 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(26-05-2017 05:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  Don't let's forget, if bad things happen to manifestly blameless people, like kids, then God is testing you. Like he's evaluating a new fan for his computer. Of course if you fail the test then those kids died for nothing Dodgy

Was bloody literally told this, I kid you not. When I asked my landlady, who was blabbering about how suffering teaches us stuff and helps us grow and I asked what does it teach a 2-year-old with cancer and she said, "Well, maybe his parents..."

Fuck to the NO and then some Censored

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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26-05-2017, 05:57 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(26-05-2017 05:47 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 05:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  Don't let's forget, if bad things happen to manifestly blameless people, like kids, then God is testing you. Like he's evaluating a new fan for his computer. Of course if you fail the test then those kids died for nothing Dodgy

Was bloody literally told this, I kid you not. When I asked my landlady, who was blabbering about how suffering teaches us stuff and helps us grow and I asked what does it teach a 2-year-old with cancer and she said, "Well, maybe his parents..."

Fuck to the NO and then some Censored

Some years back I was in a college class with a man who had Dwarfism (apologies if my terminology isn't quite correct). The very vocal member of the God Squad in class told him he was born that way because of some sin of his parents. Facepalm This along with telling a young woman in the class that the reason she was losing her hearing was because she was in a Lesbian relationship and God was punishing her.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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