By the Grace of God ...
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27-05-2017, 01:42 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
What it is supposed to mean is that they were spared without deserving it at all.
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27-05-2017, 05:22 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(26-05-2017 05:04 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 11:39 PM)TheBear Wrote:  What the fuck does it mean when, in an event where people are badly injured or killed, like when there's a horrific traffic accident, or a house fire, or an earthquake, or some lunatic decides to blow up people or mow them down with their vehicle, or whatever, the survivors, doctors and others claim that it was by the grace of god that so-and-so survived? Where was the grace of god before the event occurred? Why did it happen in the first place if the grace of god protects people and circumvents lethal situations? Is god like sitting back, watching the horror show and carnage for amusement, then finally says, 'Ok. Enough. I'll intervene now.' ?

It's an unthinking platitude in obeisance to a vague notion of god, of course it completely falls apart when you think about it, it immediately points to an unjust, capricious god who is a moral monster if their platitude was actually a descriptor of how this god functions.

It also completely mirrors what we would expect of basic random chance. This isn't really a trait you want any god to duplicate.

Yeah, another one of those "...God be willin and the creeks don't rise" platitudes.

Today is the best day of my life and tomorrow will be even better.
Robert himself
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27-05-2017, 05:37 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(27-05-2017 02:12 AM)Glossophile Wrote:  That is why, in a sense, it pains me to hear an otherwise intelligent and loving woman that I love spout such reprehensible stuff without even realizing how disgusting it is. Even in her fairly liberal brand of Christianity, there still seems to be a double standard by which God gets all of the credit and none of the blame. It's gotten especially awkward under Trump, whom both of my grandparents will defend as unfairly maligned by the media. I do my best to tactfully express my reservations about him and ask a semi-Socratic question or two to hopefully get them thinking more critically, but all the while, there's a part of me that just wants to scream at them, "I'm sorry, but how can you not see that the man's an idiot and a menace, a national embarrassment like no other and a pawn of Putin?!"
I have a friend who is in his mid-70s and while he's not exactly a Trump supporter, he does not seem to understand how much of a threat to the Republic he is, that we really are dealing with treason and avarice and the erosion of (and perhaps permanent damage to) democratic institutions. The best he can do is to say that I'm probably right because I'm such a smart guy, but he's just a simple man and there are just certain "givens" that he has to live by, such as that you "have to believe in something" (therefore, god) and so I'm welcome to be an atheist but he just can't. Similar intellectual "shims" are in place for his other major beliefs, such as that things Aren't Really THAT Bad politically.

What it boils down to is that many people just decide what is true and then steadfastly ignore all evidence to the contrary. It simplifies their lives, reduces their anxiety, and particularly when, like my friend, you're 76 years old, what's the point in overhauling your whole worldview to accommodate some ridiculous alternate reality like Trump, or the fact that your lifelong belief in some deity has no justification at all?

When it comes to people like my friend, I allow them to maintain their illusions. It's not my place to disturb their composure so long as, like my friend, they are willing to return the favor by letting me be as I am, too.

I have an "uncle and aunt-in-law" courtesy of my late previous wife who are much like your grandparents. They are VERY good, kind, loving people, and have been wonderful to me -- and to a lot of other people. They are staunch, pillar-of-the-church Methodists in their smallish rural community. The uncle died last month at advanced age, within just two weeks of my late wife's stepfather, who was the husband of the aunt's sister. So ... two newly-minted widows in the same month. You know what I did? I sighed, dusted off my old religious chops, and found a nice syrupy sympathy card full of god-poetry for each of them. Who am I to make some sort of "statement" at such a vulnerable moment, to a couple of grieving elderly women?

Similarly, you are doing the right thing by your grandparents by biting your tongue and letting them be as they are. After all, they are doing just that for you. ;-)
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27-05-2017, 05:39 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
I always thought it was a means of justification. I've found that the conversation would usually go:

"God saved you!"
"Yeah, but he killed three others."
"It was their time." or "It was his will."

That's the only way I can rationalize why they overlook so much...
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31-05-2017, 12:10 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(26-05-2017 05:57 AM)Anjele Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 05:47 AM)Vera Wrote:  Was bloody literally told this, I kid you not. When I asked my landlady, who was blabbering about how suffering teaches us stuff and helps us grow and I asked what does it teach a 2-year-old with cancer and she said, "Well, maybe his parents..."

Fuck to the NO and then some Censored

Some years back I was in a college class with a man who had Dwarfism (apologies if my terminology isn't quite correct). The very vocal member of the God Squad in class told him he was born that way because of some sin of his parents. Facepalm This along with telling a young woman in the class that the reason she was losing her hearing was because she was in a Lesbian relationship and God was punishing her.

John 9
9 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

One answer for Christian twits of that kind.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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31-05-2017, 01:53 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(31-05-2017 12:10 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 05:57 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Some years back I was in a college class with a man who had Dwarfism (apologies if my terminology isn't quite correct). The very vocal member of the God Squad in class told him he was born that way because of some sin of his parents. Facepalm This along with telling a young woman in the class that the reason she was losing her hearing was because she was in a Lesbian relationship and God was punishing her.

John 9
9 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

One answer for Christian twits of that kind.
Yeah, except that "the works of god" in this case was that he'd be healed, showing god's power. The "works of god" here in the real, modern world often end up being just that the blind person gets to show a good attitude and patience and faith, while zero in his actual reality changes for the better. It reminds me of someone commenting that some person is a "credit to their race". It's just not in the same league as what Jesus was suggesting in that legend.
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02-06-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(25-05-2017 11:39 PM)TheBear Wrote:  What the fuck does it mean when, in an event where people are badly injured or killed, like when there's a horrific traffic accident, or a house fire, or an earthquake, or some lunatic decides to blow up people or mow them down with their vehicle, or whatever, the survivors, doctors and others claim that it was by the grace of god that so-and-so survived? Where was the grace of god before the event occurred? Why did it happen in the first place if the grace of god protects people and circumvents lethal situations? Is god like sitting back, watching the horror show and carnage for amusement, then finally says, 'Ok. Enough. I'll intervene now.' ?

Ignorant logic. A tornado levels a town, one person staggers out of the ruins...it's a miracle! yes....god must have allowed all those other men, women, and children to perish because they weren't true christians, and instead chose this single individual as an example of god's miraculous life-saving power....yup...makes perfect sense Drooling

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-06-2017, 11:20 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(02-06-2017 08:43 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Ignorant logic. A tornado levels a town, one person staggers out of the ruins...it's a miracle! yes....god must have allowed all those other men, women, and children to perish because they weren't true christians, and instead chose this single individual as an example of god's miraculous life-saving power....yup...makes perfect sense Drooling

I idly wonder how many of these people that God saved went on to commit crimes or really stupid shit... Y'know, them being God's special little nugget.
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03-06-2017, 01:57 AM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
This raises the question: is God meddling in our everyday affairs, or isn't he?

If he isn't, then stop giving him credit for stuff.

If he isn't, but he planned everything to turn out exactly as it does, then blame him for all the bad stuff too.

If he is, then criticize him for allowing such horrible shit to go on all the time and only saving the odd person here and there when he feels like it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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03-06-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: By the Grace of God ...
(03-06-2017 01:57 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  This raises the question: is God meddling in our everyday affairs, or isn't he?

If he isn't, then stop giving him credit for stuff.

If he isn't, but he planned everything to turn out exactly as it does, then blame him for all the bad stuff too.

If he is, then criticize him for allowing such horrible shit to go on all the time and only saving the odd person here and there when he feels like it.
Well said. There is very much like the basic statement of the Problem of Evil argument. It is really logically unassailable that no matter which of these is true, it's incompatible with the standard-issue tri-omni (all knowing, all powerful, all loving) deity.
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