CHRIST'S TOMB
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06-02-2014, 08:03 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 08:08 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 08:00 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 07:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I don't really know any of these guys and have nothing vested in them, but I have seen the bridge, and Pastor John Smith fishing on it, and John's brother fishing with him. I don't own any portion of this bridge, and I'm not interested in any of your money as part of the commission of this sale. I have nothing to gain by lying about this, which makes me exceptionally trustworthy.
Fail as usual. First, having nothing to gain would not make you exceptionally trustworthy. Having something to lose would make you exceptionally trustworthy. Second, you actually do have something to gain. You don't like that I frequently refute your positions, so you would like to see me lose the argument. I'd say nice try, but it wasn't even that. Tongue

You've never "refuted" anything in your life, you delusional idiot, Zed-male.
There is better evidence that the Salem Mass witches actually were witches, than there is for a resurrection of yet another dying and rising god in the ancient Near East.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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06-02-2014, 08:06 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(05-02-2014 01:50 PM)morondog Wrote:  Hehehe, oh Alfy Laughat You bought a 2000 year old bridge you've never seen but you seem strangely reluctant to buy another with impeccable evidential backup. Pretty sure Cjlr can even rustle up a photo if you ask nice Smile

Here. Photographic evidence of the bridge and Pastor John Smith fishing:

[Image: tec05104v.jpg]

Congratulations, guys! We're not more credible than the Bible!
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06-02-2014, 08:10 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 08:00 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Fail as usual. First, having nothing to gain would not make you exceptionally trustworthy.

This is true, and a good point.


(06-02-2014 08:00 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Having something to lose would make you exceptionally trustworthy.

Not necessarily. If everything I gained was based on a lie, I may have to maintain that lie to keep from having my house of cards come crashing down all around me. Perhaps this whole bridge thing is a lie, and I don't want to look stupid. Perhaps some of the early Christians built up a base of followers based on a lie and had to keep ramping things up to keep it from crashing all around them...


(06-02-2014 08:00 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Second, you actually do have something to gain. You don't like that I frequently refute your positions, so you would like to see me lose the argument. I'd say nice try, but it wasn't even that. Tongue

Heh. I'm not sure I've ever seen you refute anything, aside from minor side points, such as the first one in the post. The best I've seen to date is you admitting something you say is based on faith, that you're not here to convert anyone, and then sorts say "agree to disagree".
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06-02-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 07:57 AM)Free Wrote:  Yet, you do not list the so-called "problems" and the reason why they are problems.
Yes, as your whole post was way off-topic and so I just took a shot at you. But I suppose we can go there if you like. Some problems with the default position argument:

1. It's special pleading. We're born without political stances, social philosophies, scientific knowledge, etc. You don't argue that abandoning these is a simple reversion to our natural state and a re-entrance to the realm of reason.

2. The ubiquity of religion across time and cultures seems to indicate that religious belief of some sort is the default position.

3. Consider the state of a newborn infant - created and sustained by a being of powers beyond its comprehension. While the infant can't articulate beliefs, it could be argued that at some level this primes us for belief in god, making belief the default position. It's a much better explanation for the ubiquity of religion noted above than the standard religion developed to explain natural phenomena line, which is very weak.

4. It's unsupported and frankly pretty silly to say that infants don't believe in God because they're in the "realm of reason," but that's the implication of your signature.

5. From a practical view, it's easy to turn this against you, as I've shown. It boils down to infantile instinct = good, education = bad.
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06-02-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 08:10 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is true, and a good point.
And a very obvious point. I've largely given up on you because you generally don't think things through.
Quote:Not necessarily. If everything I gained was based on a lie, I may have to maintain that lie to keep from having my house of cards come crashing down all around me.
Case in point. In this scenario, the person's motivation is to maintain gain, so his credibility is lesser, other things being equal.
Quote:Perhaps this whole bridge thing is a lie, and I don't want to look stupid.
Too late for that. Not sure why you'd jump in when the others have already been shown to be liars.
Quote:Perhaps some of the early Christians built up a base of followers based on a lie
As they had much to lose by inventing a religion which provoked a major religion of the time, your "perhaps" is unsupported and seems unlikely.
Quote:and had to keep ramping things up to keep it from crashing all around them...
How does this explain Paul? He was already a rising star in the major religion of his time and place before converting to Christianity. Everything he had came crashing down around him due to his Christian testimony, which gives it greater credibility.

Quote:Heh. I'm not sure I've ever seen you refute anything,
Maybe you're not bright enough to recognize it when you see it... Angel
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06-02-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 08:19 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 07:57 AM)Free Wrote:  Yet, you do not list the so-called "problems" and the reason why they are problems.
Yes, as your whole post was way off-topic and so I just took a shot at you. But I suppose we can go there if you like. Some problems with the default position argument:

It's special pleading. We're born without political stances, social philosophies, scientific knowledge, etc. You don't argue that abandoning these is a simple reversion to our natural state and a re-entrance to the realm of reason.

Not true. The statement has nothing to do with any kind of special pleading. You are showing comparisons in your statement above which actually reinforce my position, and are not demonstrating the attempt to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception.

Quote:2. The ubiquity of religion across time and cultures seems to indicate that religious belief of some sort is the default position.

Not true. The default position is obviously no religion at all. If this were not true, then all you need to do is take religion out of the equation as an influence to anyone after their birth, and you will still have an atheist. Why? Because you are born that way, and that cannot be disputed.

Quote:3. Consider the state of a newborn infant - created and sustained by a being of powers beyond its comprehension. While the infant can't articulate beliefs, it could be argued that at some level this primes us for belief in god, making belief the default position. It's a much better explanation for the ubiquity of religion noted above than the standard religion developed to explain natural phenomena line, which is very weak.

I see absolutely no argument in your statement above. I see no solid reasoning, no scientific evidence, and no cohesiveness. Using your reasoning above, we could easily say that an infant is also primed to believe in Peter Pan, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or even Maximus Prime for that matter. Therefore, why must it be some kind of deity?

Quote:It's unsupported and frankly pretty silly to say that infants don't believe in God because they're in the "realm of reason," but that's the implication of your signature.

No one said an infant was in the "realm of reason." You are reaching for straws here.

Quote:From a practical view, it's easy to turn this against you, as I've shown. It boils down to infantile instinct = good, education = bad.

You have not turned anything against me. In fact, all you have managed to do is reinforce the position that you were born an atheist; full stop.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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06-02-2014, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 04:45 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 08:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  How does this explain Paul? He was already a rising star in the major religion of his time and place before converting to Christianity. Everything he had came crashing down around him due to his Christian testimony, which gives it greater credibility.

Maybe you're not bright enough to recognize it when you see it... Angel

He was a "rising star" in a backwater religion in a backwater occupied country in an unimportant part of the Roman empire. Nice delusions ya got there. He requires no "explanation". Christianity and Judaism were NOT "major religions" and neither have you established what the criteria for that are, nor how they are met, oh delusional Zed-male.

Maybe you're just too stupid to argue a point effectively.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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06-02-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(05-02-2014 11:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 08:05 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  I don't even need physical confirmation, in that I don't personally need to visit his tomb. I just need to know where it is. An "I don't know" is acceptable if you really don't know.
OK, I don't know. If that's acceptable, what was your original point?

So, after several posts, alphamale finally utters a truth. My question was simple, "Where is Christ's tomb, and how do we know it's his?" In essence, alphamale is saying that his belief in an empty tomb is simply that, a belief. No proof can be given of Christ's burial or resurrection.

Let me help him out. The gospels say that Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for Jesus' body and buried it in haste in his own new tomb, which had not been used before, in the garden where Jesus crucified. Seems to me that there cannot be that many candidates for the tomb and it should be easy to find.

Except, there is a teensy-weensy problem. Where was Jesus crucified? Surely someone ought to know where such a monumental, history-changing event occurred. Alas, no one seems to have thought to mark the spot where Jesus died. As a result, there are at least three locations that claim that honor (and collect tourist dollars).

While we are on the topic:
Where was Jesus born? No idea
Where was Jesus circumcised? Down there, of course, but no one knows where the deed was done.
Where was Jesus' home? No idea
Where was the synagogue he attended? No idea
Where was he baptized? No idea
Where did he live in Capernaum? No idea
Where did he partake of the Last Supper? No idea
Where did he institue the Great Commission? No idea

You get the idea. "No idea" is the motif when we discuss anything about Jesus, while "no clue" is alphamale's motif.

Doc
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06-02-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 08:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 08:10 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is true, and a good point.
And a very obvious point. I've largely given up on you because you generally don't think things through.

Fair enough. I gave up on you during your last bout in the materialist bias thread where you left the forum for a while. You don't appear to have become any more intellectually honest since you returned.

Time to cut my losses...
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06-02-2014, 09:06 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 09:10 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 08:19 AM)alpha male Wrote:  1. It's special pleading.

You don't know the definition of Special Pleading.

(06-02-2014 08:19 AM)alpha male Wrote:  3. Consider the state of a newborn infant - created and sustained by a being of powers beyond its comprehension. While the infant can't articulate beliefs, it could be argued that at some level this primes us for belief in god, making belief the default position. It's a much better explanation for the ubiquity of religion noted above than the standard religion developed to explain natural phenomena line, which is very weak.

Using your position to argue your position. Perhaps a logic course could assist you. It's called "circular".
No one here has agreed that anyone was "created and sustained by a being of powers beyond its comprehension". All you have done is asserted that, and in no way demonstrated it. Is this more of your "refutation" ? LMAO.

Your Presuppositionalism is showing. Please put it back in your pants.

There are FAR better explanations, (which you would know if you had actually read any of the milestones in the literature of the subject. Clearly you haven't. Yet another religious idiot attempting to discuss a subject here with no education in the subject.)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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