CHRIST'S TOMB
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07-02-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(07-02-2014 08:35 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Catholics and other denominations believe that the Church of the Holy Sephlecure in Jerusalem contains the tomb that Jesus was buried in as well as the site he was supposed to have been crucified at.

Other christian sects state another site, the Garden Tomb, was supposed to have been where Jesus was buried. It matches one of the accounts of the Gospels, which states that Jesus tomb was in a garden not far from the site he was crucified at. The Garden Tomb side is close to a rocky hill called Golgotha or Skull Hill. It does match up with the execution site, called The Place of The Skull, where Jesus is crucified, according to Luke.

They also believe the site in Bethlehem was where he was born.
I've been to both places.

I don't buy that there ever was a Jebus, so it's all irrelevant, (to me).

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07-02-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(07-02-2014 06:24 AM)alpha male Wrote:  @ willhopp

Maybe looking at it from the opposite view would help.

Suppose an atheist said that he could never believe in a god.

I say, what if a being appeared to you in some miraculous fashion claiming to be a god, it told you your thoughts, it predicted the future, whatever kind of signs you like.

Atheist says, in those circumstances I could possibly believe in a god.

I say, oh snap you're dishonest, you just contradicted your earlier position!

Atheist says, you're a freaking idiot, a response to a hypothetical alternate fact pattern can't be held as a contradiction to a previous position under a different fact pattern.

Who's right, me or the atheist?

The atheist of course. His first response to you was not dishonest, it just wasn't very well thought out, yet you accused him of dishonesty anyway - making you a dooshbag.

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07-02-2014, 10:18 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 11:07 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(07-02-2014 08:35 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Catholics and other denominations believe that the Church of the Holy Sephlecure in Jerusalem contains the tomb that Jesus was buried in as well as the site he was supposed to have been crucified at.

Other christian sects state another site, the Garden Tomb, was supposed to have been where Jesus was buried. It matches one of the accounts of the Gospels, which states that Jesus tomb was in a garden not far from the site he was crucified at. The Garden Tomb side is close to a rocky hill called Golgotha or Skull Hill. It does match up with the execution site, called The Place of The Skull, where Jesus is crucified, according to Luke.

Carlo,
I was hoping for a theist's answer, but yours will do. Let's see why neither of those sites are suitable answers for the tomb's location.

1. The church of the Holy Sepulchre was built by Constantine in the 4 century CE over the site of a pagan temple (built by Hadrian) based on the popular belief that the site was where Jesus was crucified. Unfortunately, the site is well inside Jerusalem's old walls, even accounting for the expansion of the walls, while the gospels specifically say that Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem and that his tomb was in the place (in the garden) where he was crucified. Moreover, no Christian writer before the 4th century thought it worthwhile to document their outrage at the construction of a pagan temple by Hadrian on their most holy site.

2. The Garden tomb has the advantage of being outside the city walls, but has been archeologically dated to the 7th or 8th century BCE. This is in contradiction to the gospel of John which claims that the tomb was new and that no man had lain in it before.

So. Still waiting for an answer.

Doc
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07-02-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(07-02-2014 10:18 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 08:35 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Catholics and other denominations believe that the Church of the Holy Sephlecure in Jerusalem contains the tomb that Jesus was buried in as well as the site he was supposed to have been crucified at.

Other christian sects state another site, the Garden Tomb, was supposed to have been where Jesus was buried. It matches one of the accounts of the Gospels, which states that Jesus tomb was in a garden not far from the site he was crucified at. The Garden Tomb side is close to a rocky hill called Golgotha or Skull Hill. It does match up with the execution site, called The Place of The Skull, where Jesus is crucified, according to Luke.

Carlo,
I was hoping for a theist's answer, but yours will do. Let's see why neither of those sites are suitable answers for the tomb's location.

1. The church of the Holy Sepulchre was built by Constantine in the 4 century CE over the site of a pagan temple (built by Hadrian) based on the popular belief that the site was where Jesus was crucified. Unfortunatley, the site is well inside Jerusalem's old walls, even accounting for the expansion of the walls, while the gospels specifically say that Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem and that his tomb was in the place (in the garden) where he was crucified. Moreover, no Christian writer before the 4th century thought it worthwhile to document their outrage at the construction of a pagan temple by Hadrian on their most holy site.

2. The Garden tomb has the advantage of being outside the city walls, but has been archeologically dated to the 7th or 8th century BCE. This is in contradiction to the gospel of John which claims that the tomb was new and that no man had lain in it before.

So. Still waiting for an answer.

Doc


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07-02-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(07-02-2014 10:17 AM)toadaly Wrote:  The atheist of course. His first response to you was not dishonest, it just wasn't very well thought out, yet you accused him of dishonesty anyway - making you a dooshbag.
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07-02-2014, 11:10 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 11:15 AM by Monster_Riffs.)
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
Also, EK's house is near a barbers who is famed throughout the land for his 80s perms! Big Grin

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07-02-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(06-02-2014 04:13 PM)alpha male Wrote:  There's no way I could be an atheist, as a universe from nothing and life from inert matter are utterly ridiculous.

(06-02-2014 05:31 PM)alpha male Wrote:  No, it means that then I could possibly have an atheist stance.

Your first statement is DEFINITIVE. NO WAY you could be an atheist, and you list your reasons. NO WAY means NO WAY, no matter how many hypothetical situations are presented. Of course I grasp the concept of hypothetical situations, but if there's any hypothetical that exists that could sway you from believer to non-believer or doubter, then you should have NEVER said NO WAY, because clearly there's a way, regardless of how remote in your mind that WAY is. Do you not grasp the concept of definitive statements?

As for me using stereotypes, I'm sorry I didn't realize you were going to be so pedantic about what Christians "do" and what they are "supposed" to do. I thought it was implied. Christ asked his followers to spread the good news, so a follower does what their savior says, otherwise you're not following him, you're just cherry-picking what you feel like doing in the name of Christianity. Sound familiar?

In my last post I said Christians are supposed to spread the word (which you must agree with because you chastised me for not inserting "supposed" in there the first time I made this reference) and then you tell me I'm stereotyping when I say by not spreading the word you're not following Christian practices. Spreading the good news IS a Christian practice.

If you called yourself an impressionist but never picked up a paint brush or never painted anything in your life, how can you say you're an impressionist?

(07-02-2014 06:09 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Funny how atheists will point out that there are x thousands of Christian denomiantions [sic] when that suits their purposes, but act like we're all the same when that suits their purposes.

Are you saying there are denominations of Christianity that say Christians AREN'T "supposed" to spread the good news? Can you point those out to me please? Next you'll tell me I'm stereotyping Christians if I say they all believe in Christ.

Your hypothetical idea is flawed, as toadaly pointed out, for I would gladly admit a god existed if there was enough evidence. It would be silly and hypocritical for an atheist to deny a god if he were standing in front of me giving me "whatever kind of signs" I like. It's like denying the keyboard I'm using right now exists, how stupid is that?

You, on the other hand, stated there was NO WAY you could be an atheist. An atheist says there's no evidence that proves a god exists, so by saying you couldn't be one, logic dictates you believe there IS evidence of god and there's NO WAY you could be led to think otherwise. Of course then you admit if evidence presented itself you'd waver, so which one of these alpha males are you?

We're getting a little sidetracked here. You can put all the lipstick you want on the reasons you look for doubt, but in the end, I still just see a pig(headed) Christian in denial.

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07-02-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(07-02-2014 11:21 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  Your first statement is DEFINITIVE. NO WAY you could be an atheist, and you list your reasons. NO WAY means NO WAY, no matter how many hypothetical situations are presented. Of course I grasp the concept of hypothetical situations, but if there's any hypothetical that exists that could sway you from believer to non-believer or doubter, then you should have NEVER said NO WAY, because clearly there's a way, regardless of how remote in your mind that WAY is. Do you not grasp the concept of definitive statements?
Except...you apparently didn't take my first statement to be a definitive covering all possible hypotheticals, or you wouldn't have bothered posing the hypothetical. Think these things through before you post. You're just digging the hole deeper.
Quote:As for me using stereotypes, I'm sorry I didn't realize you were going to be so pedantic about what Christians "do" and what they are "supposed" to do. I thought it was implied.
I believe that. Sometimes I think something's implied and other people take it a different way. I don't go calling the intellectually dishonest over it. I clarify it, at worst being a little snarky by adding "I thought that was obvious."

When you're talking in person to a friend, you have verbal and nonverbal cues and shared history which help to get across meaning which were not put into words. When you're typing to a stranger on the internet, all you have is the words. Misunderstandings happen.
Quote:Christ asked his followers to spread the good news, so a follower does what their savior says, otherwise you're not following him, you're just cherry-picking what you feel like doing in the name of Christianity. Sound familiar?
Feel free to put up the passages for discussion. It's not as simple as you would have it. For instance, was the great commission given to every follower, or those present when it was given? I'd also suggest you read 1 Cor 12.
Quote:In my last post I said Christians are supposed to spread the word (which you must agree with because you chastised me for not inserting "supposed" in there the first time I made this reference) and then you tell me I'm stereotyping when I say by not spreading the word you're not following Christian practices. Spreading the good news IS a Christian practice.
No, I don't agree that every single Christian is called to proselytize.
Quote:If you called yourself an impressionist but never picked up a paint brush or never painted anything in your life, how can you say you're an impressionist?
By doing voices that sound like celebrities I suppose... Tongue

Quote:Are you saying there are denominations of Christianity that say Christians AREN'T "supposed" to spread the good news? Can you point those out to me please?
Mine for one. Not everyone is an evangelist. We're all called to have an answer if questioned, but not all are called to proselytize. Neither do I recall having a Catholic or Methodist knocking at my door, but I have had JWs. There are differing views on proselytizing.
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07-02-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(07-02-2014 11:43 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Except...you apparently didn't take my first statement to be a definitive covering all possible hypotheticals, or you wouldn't have bothered posing the hypothetical.

Ugh. I posed the hypothetical question because I was CHALLENGING your "definitive" original statement, for if there was NO WAY you could be an atheist, then why look for reasons to doubt? Why aren't you understanding that? I was challenging your belief or at the very least your statement, because I didn't believe you. The only hole I'm digging is to bury you. You say you look for these reasons to strengthen your beliefs, but how much stronger does "NO WAY" need to get? NO WAY is NO WAY/

If you couldn't ever be an atheist, why are you looking for ways to be one?

You're lying to us and yourself.

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07-02-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(07-02-2014 08:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nice try. The word "procreate" implies a co-action with a "creator". The fact is this is not a "creationist" forum. It's an atheist forum. BTW what exactly are you doing here ? Seth set this up as a community for non-believers. It's unethical for you to post your theist shit here. You're using the resources of non-believers to promote your shit.
So why are you talking to me? Consider
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