CHRIST'S TOMB
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31-01-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(31-01-2014 05:30 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:20 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Really? I haven't heard that before. Source?

Here you go.

In Mark 15:43 the Greek used for Joseph of Aramathea was Joseph apo Arimathias which was clearly taken word for word for the genealogy of Josephus in section 1 of Life. Which translated roughly says Joseph begat Matthias yet it made a better story to use Josephus grandfather in the bogus crucifixion story that was witnessed by Josephus who wasn’t born yet?

Haha! Interesting! Atwill thinks Joseph of Aramathea is an almost anagram of Joseph ben Matthias (i.e. Josephus)

Whatever...

This is more evidence of the close association of Josepus' histories with the gospels.

Thanks for the info.
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31-01-2014, 05:59 PM
Re: RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(31-01-2014 05:44 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:30 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  Here you go.

In Mark 15:43 the Greek used for Joseph of Aramathea was Joseph apo Arimathias which was clearly taken word for word for the genealogy of Josephus in section 1 of Life. Which translated roughly says Joseph begat Matthias yet it made a better story to use Josephus grandfather in the bogus crucifixion story that was witnessed by Josephus who wasn’t born yet?

Haha! Interesting! Atwill thinks Joseph of Aramathea is an almost anagram of Joseph ben Matthias (i.e. Josephus)

Whatever...

This is more evidence of the close association of Josepus' histories with the gospels.

Thanks for the info.

You have that backwards. If this is evidence of anything it's of Mark's author copying from Josephus and hoping his illiterate audience didn't make the connection.

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31-01-2014, 11:26 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(28-01-2014 09:42 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  So, a short discussion on another thread got me thinking - no mean feat (thanks, Escape Artist!)

Christians often claim that they worship a risen savior. My question is: Where's his empty tomb and how do they know its his?

Doc

In spite of being worshipped as a god since before his death, and in spite of healing people left and right, and thousands witnessing his miracles, and being present at his crucifixion, they all just forgot where it was. Feel free to come to me with such questions anytime. I'm always glad to help.

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31-01-2014, 11:28 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(28-01-2014 04:28 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Assuming he was actually buried in a purpose built tomb... Considering the shit storm Jesus caused, and the fact he had a cult of worshippers, I think its quite reasonable to think the Romans took his body from the tomb and destroyed it, or buried it secretly...

Even so, you would expect this following of thousands to collectively remember where it was. Yet, there is no record outside the gospels, in any of early Christian writings, that indicate in any way that anyone ever knew where it was.

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01-02-2014, 02:56 AM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
Assuming Jeebus existed, t's very unlikely there was ever a tomb.

Roman law allowed no burial rights to those killed by crucifixion. Jesus’ emaciated body would have been left for the scavenging birds and dogs as a deterrent to others who might disobey Rome (although it’s possible Pilate made an exception and gave permission for the body to be buried.)
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01-02-2014, 09:38 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
That's the kind of special pleading that is the xtian's stock in trade, though. If Pilate bothered to crucify someone why would he short-circuit his own sentence? The man could have been killed quickly and easily with a simple sword thrust.

Crucifixion was meant to send a message. The message was: Don't fuck with us. This means YOU.

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01-02-2014, 11:21 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(31-01-2014 11:28 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(28-01-2014 04:28 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Assuming he was actually buried in a purpose built tomb... Considering the shit storm Jesus caused, and the fact he had a cult of worshippers, I think its quite reasonable to think the Romans took his body from the tomb and destroyed it, or buried it secretly...

Even so, you would expect this following of thousands to collectively remember where it was. Yet, there is no record outside the gospels, in any of early Christian writings, that indicate in any way that anyone ever knew where it was.

Even in Acts, when they followers were in front of the Romans and Jews, the Jews had no clue what they were talking about when the apostles said they killed Jebus. To get around it, (as I recall) Peter said "Well, it was your sins that did it". I really don't think he caused a "shitstorm". He was a "gnat" on the arm of the occupation. They dealt with him like thousands of others, ... by use of the "standing order" in the Pax Romana to get rid of trouble makers. He pissed off the Jewish priests by disrupting the temple economy, which the entire city was built on. If he REALLY had risen, there would have been some effort to locate him, IF there were actually reports of his followers seeing him. The fact they didn't mount a search says they either never heard any story he was still around, OR didn't take it seriously, or early on, no one was making that claim.

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01-02-2014, 11:53 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(01-02-2014 02:56 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Assuming Jeebus existed, t's very unlikely there was ever a tomb.

Roman law allowed no burial rights to those killed by crucifixion. Jesus’ emaciated body would have been left for the scavenging birds and dogs as a deterrent to others who might disobey Rome (although it’s possible Pilate made an exception and gave permission for the body to be buried.)

I seem to recall, that Josephus records a story of a petition being granted for burial of a crucified convict. So possibly, it wasn't so rare. If we were to accept any truth at all of the crucifixion story, the burial of Jesus in a rich man's tomb, implies people of wealth and power cared about him, and so it's not so implausible that such a petition might have been made and granted for Jesus.

...IMHO, it's even more plausible that this aspect of the story was lifted from Josephus, but...meh

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04-02-2014, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 02:03 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
Which part of this whole story are you discussing?

The NT Jesus is taken off the cross so he wasn't left to be eaten by birds.

This is my problem with those who say there was an historical Jesus. What? Perhaps a man called Joshua who was born of normal parents, near Jerusalem, who had a couple of friends, was crucified and wasn't resurrected, but was left on the cross? That's not the NT Jesus.

If there was someone who was taken down from a cross the first thing that comes to mind is that this was not what normally happened so the rest of the story is either a complete falsehood or based on something else, a story of someone else who wasn't a convict and was taken down and was either placed in a tomb or wasn't. Maybe the tomb story is added in because it is necessary to the plot. It is easier to fit into the story than having Jesus be resurrected after he has had been eaten by birds and is still on the cross. Or, maybe it is about a real person who was crucified but survived.

The difficulty I have with this board is that there are a number of people here who say things like "the old ideas about Jesus and Saul also made sense". But did they?

A working hypothesis does not need to be right or wrong in order to be useful. It just needs to help people think clearly about a problem. In science, there is no such thing as eternal truth. The most one can ever say about a particular theory is that it fits observed facts well.

I don't think that the NT Jesus is explained best as a godman who was resurrected. I also don't think that just saying it was all a myth explains it. That would suggest it was a Harry Potter type character, entirely made up and nobody noticed. Another theory is there was a "real Jesus" who was just some preacher type, of which there were many. That is as useful as saying that Harry Potter is real because there are many English boys called Harry. But they weren't magicians etc.

Then there is an hypothesis that there was a real man who was a priest and had a following, was opposed to Rome and was crucified but survived thanks to a man called Josephus. Using that man as a model on which to base Jesus and the fact they had the same names and were married to a Mary is a theory which allows us to think about the subject. We can then see that there may be an historical figure who was not divine. We can then look beyond that, put aside the fiction/myth and look at the "philosophy" and the logic of the religion and see if it has something worthwhile. That is what is important. Should we follow those teachings regardless of whether this was a real man rather than a Godman? It isn't really important whether they were his own teachings. Maybe they originate from gnosticism or Vedism or Buddhism or Zoroastrianaism. Do any of those philsophies have anything to teach us? Do we as atheists have the answers? Can we learn from religions even if they are based on ancient myths???

I actually don't care whether Jesus was King Izas. I think it is a fascinating story even if it is not true. It adds to a non-magical, non divine explanation of Christianity. Take it or leave it. But then move on to more important questions. I think we can be moral and find purpose in life without Christianity but if we can learn lessons from it then that is a good thing particularly if we can understand where the philosophy came from and ignore the fiction/myth. On the other hand, we can also look at a lot of the parables in the NT and see them as historical anachronisms and the product of an ancient society with ideas and values which we don't have to share simply because they are piggybacked onto a godman.

Suppose the Vatican released evidence tomorrow from is vaults that Jesus was actually Jesus of Gamala, married to Mary Boethus and survived a crucifixion thirty years after the supposed crucifixion of Jesus Christ. What would happen? Would that mean that the people who follow his teachings would stop calling themselves "Christians"?
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04-02-2014, 01:36 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
Delta,
I don't have a problem with the "real" Jesus being crucified, being taken off the cross and even being buried. There are other examples of such incidents:

Josephus says in his Life, "I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered."

And in Jewish Wars, "Nay, they (the Idumeans) proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun."

I just want to know why Christians believe in a risen Christ when they do not have an empty tomb to point to.

Doc
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