CHRIST'S TOMB
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04-02-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 01:36 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Delta,
I don't have a problem with the "real" Jesus being crucified, being taken off the cross and even being buried. There are other examples of such incidents:

Josephus says in his Life, "I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered."

And in Jewish Wars, "Nay, they (the Idumeans) proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun."

I just want to know why Christians believe in a risen Christ when they do not have an empty tomb to point to.

Doc


Surely the simple answer to that is just that many people just do believe in things without proof. Dawkins says its an illness "but with your help we can cure it".


I live in the Near East so I am interested in the history of the area as it seems to be where the Celts originated from. I only have a limited interest in it though as an academic study. I don't find ancients to be a particularly pleasant bunch of people. I suppose it is surprising that they produced philosophies like Buddhism and Christianity at all. They seem to have been as clever as we are today and used methods of social manipulation which we either don't understand or have developed to a higher level and don't recognize. Is ancient religion what we now call "media"? The "opiate" of the masses??
Maybe in ancient times, over thousands of years people realized that societies, or ruling classes, needed to construct ideologies. Who knows...and who cares these days when we now wake up to the idea that an asteroid the size of ten apartment blocks is heading for us and it has nothing to do with God and all the praying in the world isn't going to stop it.
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04-02-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
I suppose what I look for in studying religions is which theory best deconstructs them. I am not trying to build up in my own mind or peddle some kind of alternative set of myths like Dan Brown does. I am really not interested. I am quite happy seeing Christianity as a propagandist product of the Romans and based on a flesh and bloods person who actually existed and was not the NT Jesus of 33 AD.
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04-02-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 01:36 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  I just want to know why Christians believe in a risen Christ when they do not have an empty tomb to point to.

Doc
From the gospel accounts, silly. Blink
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04-02-2014, 03:51 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 03:42 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 01:36 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  I just want to know why Christians believe in a risen Christ when they do not have an empty tomb to point to.

Doc
From the gospel accounts, silly. Blink

And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

You can believe me, too, because I'm telling you that I'm being honest. And I can tell you all about other people who think I'm being honest. And I can tell you about the eyewitnesses who have seen the bridge and who know me personally. Yup.

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04-02-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 03:51 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

You can believe me, too, because I'm telling you that I'm being honest. And I can tell you all about other people who think I'm being honest. And I can tell you about the eyewitnesses who have seen the bridge and who know me personally. Yup.
Bet if someone put a gun to your head and told you to recant or take a bullet, you'd recant fast enough. Actually a far lesser threat would probably do the trick. Tongue
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04-02-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:05 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 03:51 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

You can believe me, too, because I'm telling you that I'm being honest. And I can tell you all about other people who think I'm being honest. And I can tell you about the eyewitnesses who have seen the bridge and who know me personally. Yup.
Bet if someone put a gun to your head and told you to recant or take a bullet, you'd recant fast enough. Actually a far lesser threat would probably do the trick. Tongue

But I did maintain the truth of my statement under threat of execution.

You can believe me, because I'm telling you I'm being honest. And I can tell you about all of the eyewitnesses, who saw it happen and who know me personally.

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04-02-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But I did maintain the truth of my statement under threat of execution.
Evidence?
Quote:You can believe me, because I'm telling you I'm being honest. And I can tell you about all of the eyewitnesses, who saw it happen and who know me personally.
If you're trying to make an analogy to the Bible, I'm not seeing it. Care to explain? Seems like a straw man at this point.
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04-02-2014, 04:16 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:14 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But I did maintain the truth of my statement under threat of execution.
Evidence?

I wrote it down and I said it was true.

What more could you possibly ask for?

(04-02-2014 04:14 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:You can believe me, because I'm telling you I'm being honest. And I can tell you about all of the eyewitnesses, who saw it happen and who know me personally.
If you're trying to make an analogy to the Bible, I'm not seeing it. Care to explain? Seems like a straw man at this point.

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This is the single least aware thing anybody has ever said.

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04-02-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:05 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Bet if someone put a gun to your head and told you to recant or take a bullet, you'd recant fast enough. Actually a far lesser threat would probably do the trick. Tongue

Well now, suppose I threatened to shoot you if you refused to recant, and you refused to recant, and I shot you, isn't that more evidence that you were dumb, than that you really believe the truth of what you claim ? Just damn well pretend, I don't shoot you, *everyone* knows you pretended 'cos it was a recanting made under threat, and you're not dead.

The test you propose doesn't work, to check if someone's lying or not.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-02-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  The test you propose doesn't work, to check if someone's lying or not.

Fun fact: every major religion has tons of martyrs!

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