CHRIST'S TOMB
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04-02-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 01:17 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I don't think that the NT Jesus is explained best as a godman who was resurrected. I also don't think that just saying it was all a myth explains it. That would suggest it was a Harry Potter type character, entirely made up and nobody noticed.

Suppose you're right, and Jesus was originally a Harry Potter character. How do you know that no-one noticed?

...of course, most mythicists don't claim Jesus was an intentionally invented fictional character anyway (some do, such as Atwill).

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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04-02-2014, 04:27 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:16 PM)cjlr Wrote:  This is the single least aware thing anybody has ever said.
Dodge, duck, dip, dive and...dodge!
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04-02-2014, 04:32 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 04:39 PM by alpha male.)
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  Well now, suppose I threatened to shoot you if you refused to recant, and you refused to recant, and I shot you, isn't that more evidence that you were dumb, than that you really believe the truth of what you claim ?
No, it's evidence that my cause was more important to me than my own life.
Quote:Just damn well pretend, I don't shoot you, *everyone* knows you pretended 'cos it was a recanting made under threat, and you're not dead.

The test you propose doesn't work, to check if someone's lying or not.
I disagree. If someone will suffer loss rather than recant, I'm more apt to believe them. That's pretty standard. If you're on a jury, all other things being equal, testimony from a person who stands to lose from their testimony is more compelling than testimony from someone who stands to gain from their testimony.

ETA: Consider televangelists. You think their pleas for donations diminish their credibility, right?
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04-02-2014, 04:39 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:32 PM)alpha male Wrote:  If you're on a jury, all other things being equal, testimony from a person who stands to lose from their testimony is more compelling than testimony from someone who stands to gain from their testimony.

And yet testimonies from mafia rats who are promised immunity and safe haven in witness protection are responsible for more convictions than any other evidence in history pertaining to organized crime.

Smile

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04-02-2014, 04:41 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:27 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:16 PM)cjlr Wrote:  This is the single least aware thing anybody has ever said.
Dodge, duck, dip, dive and...dodge!

So you're telling me you don't see any way in which your blind acceptance of a text with no external evidence (and which makes claims contradicted by external evidence) based solely on its internal self-references could be at all related or perhaps contrasted with your refusal to blindly accept the statements I make, which are precisely as self-affirming and have precisely the same amount of external evidence going for them?

You are special. Don't let 'em grind you down, you crazy diamond you.

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04-02-2014, 04:42 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:39 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:32 PM)alpha male Wrote:  If you're on a jury, all other things being equal, testimony from a person who stands to lose from their testimony is more compelling than testimony from someone who stands to gain from their testimony.

And yet testimonies from mafia rats who are promised immunity and safe haven in witness protection are responsible for more convictions than any other evidence in history pertaining to organized crime.

Smile
What's with the "And yet"? Are you claiming that in all or most of these cases, there's someone giving opposite testimony who stands to lose from that testimony? Can you support that?
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04-02-2014, 04:44 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:41 PM)cjlr Wrote:  So you're telling me you don't see any way in which your blind acceptance of a text with no external evidence (and which makes claims contradicted by external evidence) based solely on its internal self-references could be at all related or perhaps contrasted with your refusal to blindly accept the statements I make, which are precisely as self-affirming and have precisely the same amount of external evidence going for them?

You are special. Don't let 'em grind you down, you crazy diamond you.
The Bible is a collection. You're a single source.
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04-02-2014, 04:52 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:42 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:39 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  And yet testimonies from mafia rats who are promised immunity and safe haven in witness protection are responsible for more convictions than any other evidence in history pertaining to organized crime.

Smile
What's with the "And yet"? Are you claiming that in all or most of these cases, there's someone giving opposite testimony who stands to lose from that testimony? Can you support that?

Why opposite testimony?

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04-02-2014, 04:56 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:32 PM)alpha male Wrote:  No, it's evidence that my cause was more important to me than my own life.
Which is now terminated and your cause is less one more preacher-man. Way to go advancing your cause.

Quote:I disagree. If someone will suffer loss rather than recant, I'm more apt to believe them. That's pretty standard. If you're on a jury, all other things being equal, testimony from a person who stands to lose from their testimony is more compelling than testimony from someone who stands to gain from their testimony.
You're weird. You said that you'd test Cjlr by threatening to shoot him and if he recanted then you wouldn't buy his bullshit. But almost *anyone* would recant if you threatened them, and you wouldn't know if they were lying intially or if they actually did believe what you forced them to recant, but just were too scared.

If they refuse to recant... well, I still think that doesn't *necessarily* show that they believe what they claim (although I'll grant you it lends the idea a certain weight), it shows that they attach some importance to not publicly saying that they *don't* believe it, enough to risk death. You can't conceive of a situation where someone will do something like that ? Like what if I've told Cjlr that I'll kill his family if he doesn't convince *you* of this stuff ? He'll risk a bullet no worries.

So like I said, your test doesn't seem likely to identify a liar or even a sincere believer.

Quote:ETA: Consider televangelists. You think their pleas for donations diminish their credibility, right?
Well I don't watch the buggers, but their credibility is mainly destroyed by the crap they sell, I can quite happily listen to an appeal from someone whom I think is genuine.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-02-2014, 04:59 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:52 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Why opposite testimony?
Because opposite, or at least substantially different, testimony is implied in my scenario which you responded to.
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