CHRIST'S TOMB
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04-02-2014, 05:18 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  Which is now terminated and your cause is less one more preacher-man. Way to go advancing your cause.
As many people are more likely to pay attention to a cause for which a person will die, my cause may have advanced more through my death than through my life.
Quote:You're weird.
Yes, but that's neither here nor there.
Quote:You said that you'd test Cjlr by threatening to shoot him and if he recanted then you wouldn't buy his bullshit. But almost *anyone* would recant if you threatened them, and you wouldn't know if they were lying intially or if they actually did believe what you forced them to recant, but just were too scared.
Sure, recanting doesn't show us much, but the people who refuse to recant do attract attention and gain credibility with many people.
Quote:If they refuse to recant... well, I still think that doesn't *necessarily* show that they believe what they claim (although I'll grant you it lends the idea a certain weight),
Yep, it sure does lend weight.
Quote:it shows that they attach some importance to not publicly saying that they *don't* believe it, enough to risk death. You can't conceive of a situation where someone will do something like that ? Like what if I've told Cjlr that I'll kill his family if he doesn't convince *you* of this stuff ? He'll risk a bullet no worries.
Now you're going back to a recant situation, which I agree doesn't tell us as much.
Quote:So like I said, your test doesn't seem likely to identify a liar or even a sincere believer.
I disagree. The person who stands firm gains credibility, as you half-heartedly acknowledged.
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04-02-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:44 PM)alpha male Wrote:  The Bible is a collection. You're a single source.

I have several friends here who will back me up. I could have sworn I already mentioned my eyewitnesses. No?

That I (and they) are limited to a single medium is immaterial.
(and it certainly doesn't matter if you find a different version buried out in the desert somewhere, because I'm the one telling you the truth)

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04-02-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 05:18 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  Which is now terminated and your cause is less one more preacher-man. Way to go advancing your cause.
As many people are more likely to pay attention to a cause for which a person will die, my cause may have advanced more through my death than through my life.
Quote:You're weird.
Yes, but that's neither here nor there.
Quote:You said that you'd test Cjlr by threatening to shoot him and if he recanted then you wouldn't buy his bullshit. But almost *anyone* would recant if you threatened them, and you wouldn't know if they were lying intially or if they actually did believe what you forced them to recant, but just were too scared.
Sure, recanting doesn't show us much, but the people who refuse to recant do attract attention and gain credibility with many people.
Quote:If they refuse to recant... well, I still think that doesn't *necessarily* show that they believe what they claim (although I'll grant you it lends the idea a certain weight),
Yep, it sure does lend weight.
Quote:it shows that they attach some importance to not publicly saying that they *don't* believe it, enough to risk death. You can't conceive of a situation where someone will do something like that ? Like what if I've told Cjlr that I'll kill his family if he doesn't convince *you* of this stuff ? He'll risk a bullet no worries.
Now you're going back to a recant situation, which I agree doesn't tell us as much.
Quote:So like I said, your test doesn't seem likely to identify a liar or even a sincere believer.
I disagree. The person who stands firm gains credibility, as you half-heartedly acknowledged.

Many Muslims are willing to die for their faith. Does that make their religion true as well?
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04-02-2014, 05:28 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
No, Alpha, you said testimony from someone who has something to lose is more powerful than testimony from someone who has something to gain. That doesn't mean contrasting testimonies, it means possible contrasting outcomes for said witnesses.

But I see your point, so I will turn your query back on you, how do you know someone with more to lose is more believable? Because it's what you believe? Because it fits your stance better? It's subjective, no?

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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04-02-2014, 05:47 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
Alpha,
You're dodging my question. Granted that the gospels say that Christ's tomb is empty - how would you confirm it? Can you point me to it?

Doc
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04-02-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:05 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Bet if someone put a gun to your head and told you to recant or take a bullet, you'd recant fast enough. Actually a far lesser threat would probably do the trick. Tongue

Been there, done that. Took the gun from him, and said "Go fuck yourself." Yes, this actually happened to me. He was a white supremacist, and although I am also white, I would not buy into his bullshit.

Some people are not so easily intimidated. I am one of those people.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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04-02-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 04:32 PM)alpha male Wrote:  I disagree. If someone will suffer loss rather than recant, I'm more apt to believe them. That's pretty standard. If you're on a jury, all other things being equal, testimony from a person who stands to lose from their testimony is more compelling than testimony from someone who stands to gain from their testimony.

ETA: Consider televangelists. You think their pleas for donations diminish their credibility, right?

So, if someone on trial for attempted murder (and is facing a long prison sentence if found guilty) takes the stand and says they didn't do it, that is more compelling than the person whom they tried to kill (and would gain peace of mind if their attacker goes to prison) taking the stand and saying they did do it?

Please do your best to get out of jury duty in the future....
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04-02-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
Quote:I seem to recall, that Josephus records a story of a petition being granted for burial of a crucified convict.


I don't recall that. Josephus does record that he spotted three friends hanging on crosses and asked Titus to release them. He did. Two died anyway.

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04-02-2014, 11:41 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 05:18 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:it shows that they attach some importance to not publicly saying that they *don't* believe it, enough to risk death. You can't conceive of a situation where someone will do something like that ? Like what if I've told Cjlr that I'll kill his family if he doesn't convince *you* of this stuff ? He'll risk a bullet no worries.
Now you're going back to a recant situation, which I agree doesn't tell us as much.
This is an example of someone who does not believe still risking the bullet to convince you. It is not the same as the person recanting. What I am saying is that the person's reasons for risking the bullet are not known to you.

Quote:
Quote:So like I said, your test doesn't seem likely to identify a liar or even a sincere believer.
I disagree. The person who stands firm gains credibility, as you half-heartedly acknowledged.
Some credibility, only from the point of view of being too bloody daft to lie or having another reason for risking the bullet. And being dead.

In any case, even if I give you that it proves they were not consciously lying, it doesn't prove that what they *so sincerely* believed is in fact correct.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-02-2014, 11:46 PM
RE: CHRIST'S TOMB
(04-02-2014 05:19 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:44 PM)alpha male Wrote:  The Bible is a collection. You're a single source.

I have several friends here who will back me up. I could have sworn I already mentioned my eyewitnesses. No?

That I (and they) are limited to a single medium is immaterial.
(and it certainly doesn't matter if you find a different version buried out in the desert somewhere, because I'm the one telling you the truth)


Indeed, for I too have both seen the bridge and can attest to cjlr's truthfulness; and since you know I'm real you can trust me too.

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