California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
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08-10-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 02:07 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 02:03 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  A fetus is not some blood sucking parasite.

Seriously??? I know some blood sucking parasites that are still feeding off their mother when they're 30 years old......

OK, I'll give you that.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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08-10-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 01:54 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 01:45 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  No, it doesn't. Let's look at your last point first: if the metric is feeling pain, you should be a vegetarian, because the lives of livestock are filled with pain. The pain of death is usually address by quick methods, but still, branding, skeletal pain caused by growth hormones, and so on mean that those animals have pain inflicted upon them.

Anticipating that you will object, "But they're not human", we have to ask, what is it then that makes us human? Clearly it isn't the capacity to feel pain. I would argue that it is the capacity for thinking. Indeed, our species name, Homo Sapiens, refers directly to that. Yet brainwaves in a fetus don't start until much later than your 8-week figure.

Moving on: the fetus inside her has no rights. No one has the right to the body of another human being. If my kidneys fail, can I come to your doorstep with a surgeon in tow? After all, my life depends on your kidneys. Do I have that right to life? Or do you have a right to do as you say with your own body? If a fetus, treated as a person, has the right to impose itself upon another person in such an invasive manner, shouldn't I have that same right? After all, we are both people.

The right to control one's own body has nothing to do with age or viability of the fetus. It has everything to do with the fact that one's own body is, at the end of it all, the limits of our control. Usurpation by the government of that right is obnoxious.

I don't think you've really thought this out all that much.

I've said this for years.

The "beginning of life" can be just as a difficult question as to what is "the end of life"????

That is -- we generally accept that simply breathing or having a heartbeat doesn't indicate life. (With exceptions to certain senior Republican Senators)....

We as a society have pretty well decided that brain death is the end of life. If your brain is never going to be self aware, or able of any reasoning - we conclude that you're brain dead - and thus for all intents and purposes, we can "pull the plug".

So shouldn't the same standard be held to the beginning of life?

Simply having two brain cells doesn't mean you're alive. (again, with exception to the above mentioned senators...)

...

Sure - it's tricky to say when life begins --- but it's really safe to assume it's not at the moment of conception.

That's just a lame excuse - to not make a reasoned decision...

I can go with that line of thinking. But I think we're back to around the 20 week mark. Even before that, a fetus has much more control over moving his limbs and fingers than a brain dead person.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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08-10-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
I think a distinction needs to be made. I doubt anyone here is pro-abortion...in fact, quite the opposite...which is why Planned Parenthood needs to exist - for birth control. I disagree completely with abortion being used as a form of birth control.

Most people here are pro-choice. Shit happens, even with birth control as most everyone knows.

The pro-life advocates who want abortion abolished aren't going to be around to raise a child when a woman can't, or won't, care for a child properly.

As for late term abortions, I doubt anyone here agrees with those either except in the case where the mother's life, and by extension, the child's life are in extreme danger.

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08-10-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 02:20 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I think a distinction needs to be made. I doubt anyone here is pro-abortion...in fact, quite the opposite...which is why Planned Parenthood needs to exist - for birth control. I disagree completely with abortion being used as a form of birth control.

Most people here are pro-choice. Shit happens, even with birth control as most everyone knows.

The pro-life advocates who want abortion abolished aren't going to be around to raise a child when a woman can't, or won't, care for a child properly.

As for late term abortions, I doubt anyone here agrees with those either except in the case where the mother's life, and by extension, the child's life are in extreme danger.

Late-term abortions are a tiny fraction of all abortions and are rarely performed without a good medical reason; so let's stop conflating those with abortions in the first and second trimester.

As for the fetus being a human being, it is patently ridiculous to call a clump of cell that lacks a nervous system, let alone a brain, a human being.

The way to cut that moral knot, though, is to be concerned about persons, not clumps of cells.
What constitutes a person? A person requires a functioning consciousness, and that requires a functioning brain. That doesn't occur until at least 20 weeks, closer to 24.

We legally kill human beings rather often. A brain-dead human is kept alive until its organs can be harvested.
Is that a person being killed? No, that person is dead and gone.

Is a 4-week or 14-week fetus a person? No. No person inhabits that fetus.

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08-10-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 11:01 AM)Anjele Wrote:  How a right to choose becomes pushing morality on others is a mystery to me.

Making laws which require pharmacists to dispense emergency contraceptives takes away the pharmacist's right to CHOOSE not to participate in the killing of another human being. If you support that law....that pharmacist's must dispense emergency contraceptives ....then you are forcing your choice and morality onto someone else.

Emergency contraceptives work by potentially preventing implantation of the fertilized egg.
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08-10-2015, 02:43 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 02:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 11:01 AM)Anjele Wrote:  How a right to choose becomes pushing morality on others is a mystery to me.



Emergency contraceptives work by potentially preventing implantation of the fertilized egg.

Yup. What's your so-called point??

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08-10-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 02:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Emergency contraceptives work by potentially preventing implantation of the fertilized egg.

Not really.

As predicted, you've ignored presented facts that contradict your position.

I'm trying to determine if you're deliberately obtuse or just stupid. I'm leaning towards deliberately obtuse, but haven't ruled out stupid.

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08-10-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 03:03 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 02:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Emergency contraceptives work by potentially preventing implantation of the fertilized egg.

Not really.

As predicted, you've ignored presented facts that contradict your position.

I'm trying to determine if you're deliberately obtuse or just stupid. I'm leaning towards deliberately obtuse, but haven't ruled out stupid.

Why not both? Consider

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08-10-2015, 03:57 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 11:35 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I think the 20 week mark is kind of the gold standard, due to the miscarriage risk, and many scientists point to the 20 week mark where pain can be felt etc. I believe there's even a bill in committee right now called the fetal pain 20 week abortion ban or something like that.

The more you know. Does a Fetus Feel Pain at 20 Weeks?

#sigh
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08-10-2015, 03:58 PM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 03:03 PM)BnW Wrote:  Not really.

As predicted, you've ignored presented facts that contradict your position.

I'm trying to determine if you're deliberately obtuse or just stupid. I'm leaning towards deliberately obtuse, but haven't ruled out stupid.

First of all a pharmacist is much more likely to know if a drug is going to cause a fetilized egg not to implant than you are. You are just an internet crackpot for all I know and I ignored your post because it was impotent. Second, even if emergency contraceptives only prevents ovulation(which is a stretch to believe...but whatever) it doesn't matter. The pharmacists believes that by dispensing the emergency contraceptive they are participating in the killing of another human being. No one should be forced to participate in an act in which they believe a human may be killed if they do not want too. Yet you lefties force your morality onto people and pass anti-refusal to dispense laws.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news...se-plan-b/
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