California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
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08-10-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 05:40 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  All this talk about embryos. In humans, the embryo stage is through week eight. After that, its called a fetus until birth.

I'm very concerned with the idea of terminating a pregnancy in the fetal stage. Just looking at the pictures of a fetus during this time makes it very clear that this is a human. We atheists, being more scientific minded, should realize this better than any other group. Unfortunately, I think most atheists have alligned themselves with left wing politics, which in turn has them towing the party line on abortion and ignoring the science.

We're better than that.

Speak for yourself. I'm a registered Libertarian, and while I don't like the idea of abortion, I like even less the idea of the government taking away from a woman the most basic human right, the right to control one's own body.

Even after eight weeks, when the fetus is recognizably human, it still has no right to command its mother (by government proxy) to bring itself to birth, any more than my sister has a right to my liver should hers fail.

Long story short: you ascribing objection to abortion to conformity is simply a way for you to cling to your views without entertaining those views different from your own. You're better off simply espousing your own views, rather than speculating on the motives of people you don't know.
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08-10-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
How a right to choose becomes pushing morality on others is a mystery to me.

Making a law to prevent an action, based on some group's morality, is pushing that morality on everyone.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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08-10-2015, 11:09 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
I could be wrong but I think it would be possible for a woman to not even know she was pregnant at 8 weeks.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-10-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 11:09 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I could be wrong but I think it would be possible for a woman to not even know she was pregnant at 8 weeks.

You aren't wrong. Though it's a lot easier these days to find out.

It's not uncommon for a woman to have a light period after becoming pregnant and therefore not knowing. That's why due dates were kinda iffy back in the day before the every other week sonogram started.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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08-10-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 10:51 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 05:40 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  All this talk about embryos. In humans, the embryo stage is through week eight. After that, its called a fetus until birth.

I'm very concerned with the idea of terminating a pregnancy in the fetal stage. Just looking at the pictures of a fetus during this time makes it very clear that this is a human. We atheists, being more scientific minded, should realize this better than any other group. Unfortunately, I think most atheists have alligned themselves with left wing politics, which in turn has them towing the party line on abortion and ignoring the science.

We're better than that.

Speak for yourself. I'm a registered Libertarian, and while I don't like the idea of abortion, I like even less the idea of the government taking away from a woman the most basic human right, the right to control one's own body.

Even after eight weeks, when the fetus is recognizably human, it still has no right to command its mother (by government proxy) to bring itself to birth, any more than my sister has a right to my liver should hers fail.

Long story short: you ascribing objection to abortion to conformity is simply a way for you to cling to your views without entertaining those views different from your own. You're better off simply espousing your own views, rather than speculating on the motives of people you don't know.

I agree that a woman should have control over her body. But I think that must be balanced with the rights of the human inside her. I think that balance can be achieved, by realizing that beyond a certain point in development a fetus can feel pain (some researchers claim 8 weeks, others 20, some 26 weeks), as well as survive outside the womb as early as 22 weeks. Clearly, if a fetus has reached the age that it could survive outside the womb, why terminate it? Better yet, if a fetus has reached the age that it can feel pain (possible 8-26 weeks) why cause it pain? Terminating a pregnancy at the beginning stages offers a balance of rights to the mother and unborn.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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08-10-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 11:15 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 10:51 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Speak for yourself. I'm a registered Libertarian, and while I don't like the idea of abortion, I like even less the idea of the government taking away from a woman the most basic human right, the right to control one's own body.

Even after eight weeks, when the fetus is recognizably human, it still has no right to command its mother (by government proxy) to bring itself to birth, any more than my sister has a right to my liver should hers fail.

Long story short: you ascribing objection to abortion to conformity is simply a way for you to cling to your views without entertaining those views different from your own. You're better off simply espousing your own views, rather than speculating on the motives of people you don't know.

I agree that a woman should have control over her body. But I think that must be balanced with the rights of the human inside her. I think that balance can be achieved, by realizing that beyond a certain point in development a fetus can feel pain (some researchers claim 8 weeks, others 20, some 26 weeks), as well as survive outside the womb as early as 22 weeks. Clearly, if a fetus has reached the age that it could survive outside the womb, why terminate it? Better yet, if a fetus has reached the age that it can feel pain (possible 8-26 weeks) why cause it pain? Terminating a pregnancy at the beginning stages offers a balance of rights to the mother and unborn.

So which researchers do you think should be setting the standard?

Through the first trimester of pregnancy miscarriages aren't uncommon and often aren't even known to be miscarriages. First trimester is well beyond 8 weeks.

Pregnancy and Miscarriage
A miscarriage is the loss of a baby before the 20th week of pregnancy.

According to the March of Dimes, as many as 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage -- most often before a woman misses a menstrual period or even knows she is pregnant. About 15% of recognized pregnancies will end in a miscarriage.

More than 80% of miscarriages occur within the first three months of pregnancy. They are less likely to occur after 20 weeks' gestation; if they do, they are called late miscarriages.

http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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08-10-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 11:09 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I could be wrong but I think it would be possible for a woman to not even know she was pregnant at 8 weeks.
Got news for you hoss -- there's been cases where a woman didn't know she was pregnant until she delivered......

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08-10-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 11:24 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 11:09 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I could be wrong but I think it would be possible for a woman to not even know she was pregnant at 8 weeks.
Got news for you hoss -- there's been cases where a woman didn't know she was pregnant until she delivered......

This is true, though it baffles me how you can carry full term and not realize something is kicking your ribs and jumping on your bladder. Blink

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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08-10-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
I had a neighbor who didn't know she was expecting until she was in labor. It does happen.

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08-10-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: California Governor Signs Assisted Suicide Bill Into Law
(08-10-2015 11:22 AM)Anjele Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 11:15 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I agree that a woman should have control over her body. But I think that must be balanced with the rights of the human inside her. I think that balance can be achieved, by realizing that beyond a certain point in development a fetus can feel pain (some researchers claim 8 weeks, others 20, some 26 weeks), as well as survive outside the womb as early as 22 weeks. Clearly, if a fetus has reached the age that it could survive outside the womb, why terminate it? Better yet, if a fetus has reached the age that it can feel pain (possible 8-26 weeks) why cause it pain? Terminating a pregnancy at the beginning stages offers a balance of rights to the mother and unborn.

So which researchers do you think should be setting the standard?

Through the first trimester of pregnancy miscarriages aren't uncommon and often aren't even known to be miscarriages. First trimester is well beyond 8 weeks.

Pregnancy and Miscarriage
A miscarriage is the loss of a baby before the 20th week of pregnancy.

According to the March of Dimes, as many as 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage -- most often before a woman misses a menstrual period or even knows she is pregnant. About 15% of recognized pregnancies will end in a miscarriage.

More than 80% of miscarriages occur within the first three months of pregnancy. They are less likely to occur after 20 weeks' gestation; if they do, they are called late miscarriages.

http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage

I think the 20 week mark is kind of the gold standard, due to the miscarriage risk, and many scientists point to the 20 week mark where pain can be felt etc. I believe there's even a bill in committee right now called the fetal pain 20 week abortion ban or something like that.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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