Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
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04-09-2011, 04:37 PM
Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
I haven't seen this argument from an atheist anywhere else but here. That is why I am going to direct this "bitching" at you, and you know who you are.(I probably know that the person isn't really the person that browses here, so don't post about it.)

The argument that you will be bored in heaven after an allotted amount of time is an argument that could be equal in scale to the arguments creationist use. It's stupid, the whole concept of heaven is to leave this fleshy, emotional, pain-prone body for the highest happiness. You will not get bored, end of fucking discussion. Stop making us intelligent atheist look stupid.

Let me be clear, the idea that you can't be bored, sad, etc... is a huge problem for them to explain and I think it's a stupid man made idea. But when man made ideas state 'B', no matter how stupid they are, you don't pull one from the creationist book and say it will turn into 'C'.

I should have probably necro'd my "Things I hate about atheist" thread for this, but I hate to necro.

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04-09-2011, 05:43 PM
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
(04-09-2011 04:37 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  I haven't seen this argument from an atheist anywhere else but here. That is why I am going to direct this "bitching" at you, and you know who you are.(I probably know that the person isn't really the person that browses here, so don't post about it.)

The argument that you will be bored in heaven after an allotted amount of time is an argument that could be equal in scale to the arguments creationist use. It's stupid, the whole concept of heaven is to leave this fleshy, emotional, pain-prone body for the highest happiness. You will not get bored, end of fucking discussion. Stop making us intelligent atheist look stupid.

Let me be clear, the idea that you can't be bored, sad, etc... is a huge problem for them to explain and I think it's a stupid man made idea. But when man made ideas state 'B', no matter how stupid they are, you don't pull one from the creationist book and say it will turn into 'C'.

I should have probably necro'd my "Things I hate about atheist" thread for this, but I hate to necro.

I think I understand what you are saying.

As heaven is a theoretical concept in which one is permanently happy, there's no point arguing it is not possible to be happy because by definition it is part of the concept. Is that your point?
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04-09-2011, 06:03 PM
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
(04-09-2011 05:43 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(04-09-2011 04:37 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  I haven't seen this argument from an atheist anywhere else but here. That is why I am going to direct this "bitching" at you, and you know who you are.(I probably know that the person isn't really the person that browses here, so don't post about it.)

The argument that you will be bored in heaven after an allotted amount of time is an argument that could be equal in scale to the arguments creationist use. It's stupid, the whole concept of heaven is to leave this fleshy, emotional, pain-prone body for the highest happiness. You will not get bored, end of fucking discussion. Stop making us intelligent atheist look stupid.

Let me be clear, the idea that you can't be bored, sad, etc... is a huge problem for them to explain and I think it's a stupid man made idea. But when man made ideas state 'B', no matter how stupid they are, you don't pull one from the creationist book and say it will turn into 'C'.

I should have probably necro'd my "Things I hate about atheist" thread for this, but I hate to necro.

I think I understand what you are saying.

As heaven is a theoretical concept in which one is permanently happy, there's no point arguing it is not possible to be happy because by definition it is part of the concept. Is that your point?

So we'd be slaves to happiness....praying to a god we dont believe in...not being able to make decisions that would make us sad/mad/angry....wow sounds like hell to me.
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04-09-2011, 08:21 PM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2011 08:25 PM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
(04-09-2011 05:43 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(04-09-2011 04:37 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  I haven't seen this argument from an atheist anywhere else but here. That is why I am going to direct this "bitching" at you, and you know who you are.(I probably know that the person isn't really the person that browses here, so don't post about it.)

The argument that you will be bored in heaven after an allotted amount of time is an argument that could be equal in scale to the arguments creationist use. It's stupid, the whole concept of heaven is to leave this fleshy, emotional, pain-prone body for the highest happiness. You will not get bored, end of fucking discussion. Stop making us intelligent atheist look stupid.

Let me be clear, the idea that you can't be bored, sad, etc... is a huge problem for them to explain and I think it's a stupid man made idea. But when man made ideas state 'B', no matter how stupid they are, you don't pull one from the creationist book and say it will turn into 'C'.

I should have probably necro'd my "Things I hate about atheist" thread for this, but I hate to necro.

I think I understand what you are saying.

As heaven is a theoretical concept in which one is permanently happy, there's no point arguing it is not possible to be happy because by definition it is part of the concept. Is that your point?


Yes, simply put. People are arguing a set in stone definition. Nothing pisses me off more than finding idiots among "free thinkers"

I thought it was a perk to coming to this side to get away from them.

Example A.

(04-09-2011 06:03 PM)BGrambo Wrote:  So we'd be slaves to happiness....praying to a god we dont believe in...not being able to make decisions that would make us sad/mad/angry....wow sounds like hell to me.

If I am forced into a massage, a slave of being massaged, not being able to say that I don't want this soothing massage.... Do you see how stupid your comment seems now? Also, the whole "don't believe" part, you wouldn't be in heaven in the first place if that was the case.

For fucks sake you see what I am dealing with?

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04-09-2011, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2011 10:48 PM by BGrambo.)
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
(04-09-2011 08:21 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(04-09-2011 05:43 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(04-09-2011 04:37 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  I haven't seen this argument from an atheist anywhere else but here. That is why I am going to direct this "bitching" at you, and you know who you are.(I probably know that the person isn't really the person that browses here, so don't post about it.)

The argument that you will be bored in heaven after an allotted amount of time is an argument that could be equal in scale to the arguments creationist use. It's stupid, the whole concept of heaven is to leave this fleshy, emotional, pain-prone body for the highest happiness. You will not get bored, end of fucking discussion. Stop making us intelligent atheist look stupid.

Let me be clear, the idea that you can't be bored, sad, etc... is a huge problem for them to explain and I think it's a stupid man made idea. But when man made ideas state 'B', no matter how stupid they are, you don't pull one from the creationist book and say it will turn into 'C'.

I should have probably necro'd my "Things I hate about atheist" thread for this, but I hate to necro.

I think I understand what you are saying.

As heaven is a theoretical concept in which one is permanently happy, there's no point arguing it is not possible to be happy because by definition it is part of the concept. Is that your point?


Yes, simply put. People are arguing a set in stone definition. Nothing pisses me off more than finding idiots among "free thinkers"

I thought it was a perk to coming to this side to get away from them.

Example A.

(04-09-2011 06:03 PM)BGrambo Wrote:  So we'd be slaves to happiness....praying to a god we dont believe in...not being able to make decisions that would make us sad/mad/angry....wow sounds like hell to me.

If I am forced into a massage, a slave of being massaged, not being able to say that I don't want this soothing massage.... Do you see how stupid your comment seems now? Also, the whole "don't believe" part, you wouldn't be in heaven in the first place if that was the case.

For fucks sake you see what I am dealing with?

So if I don't believe in being massaged, I wont be massaged? Also, if you're not god, how can you state whether or not I will go to heaven if I don't believe in god. I've never stated that the holy spirit doesn't exist, so perhaps this God will make an exception for me. Man wrote what god said, perhaps man made a few mistakes.
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05-09-2011, 12:02 PM
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
You are fools! Both of you!

The fallacy of afterlife as a place where you have an unlimited amount of happy experiences does not only come from the failure do conceptualize happy, but also from the fallacy of defining infinite as an quantity.

For once and for all! Infinity is not a quantity. Infinity is not "a lot", it is not "a whole lot", it is not "a fucking whole lot". Infinity is just that! Infinite! 1% of infinity is just as infinite as 100%. You'll never reach the middle of infinity. Taking infinity as a quantity is like taking oranges for apples. No wait! It's like taking oranges for purple and apples for a fucking strategic nuclear bomber! It doesn't make any sense! (Ever gentle and intelligent 3vid3nce has a good video about that)

As for happiness...
If you take happiness as defined by the ancient Greek philosophers you'll get the following: Light is the absence of darkness, war is the absence of peace and happiness is the absence of unhappiness. There you go! When your death, you truly ARE happy for infinity simply because you cease to be unhappy! Yeah! Like if that's what pastor meant when he talks about infinite happiness. What a quibble!

But this it what it boils down to with religion isn't it? Half truths, undefined concepts that people can quibble about all they like without getting to an agreement, and philosophical non-issues.

Discussions like this on atheist sites really piss me off since it's just this kind of shit religious folks seem to be happy about.

Define your shit before starting a discussion and cut the crap! Unless your ambition is to be the laughing stock of theists.

Observer

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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05-09-2011, 12:13 PM
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
If* I were to go to heaven, I am not sure that I could exist in a state on happy (or unhappiness for that matter) because of knowing of the alternative. If** heaven were real then I am going to also assume Hell is real, and if*** both exist and I am in the former I find it hard to believe that I could be in a true state of bliss or happiness knowing of all of the people suffering in hell. By some christian definitions, those that are suffering aren't just us damn dirty willing non-believers but also those who have lived and do live in areas and times where the Bible, Christ and God are unknowns. All the innocents**** that are suffering a fate of eternal punishment would be a pretty sad fact to know, and knowing it would certainly not allow me to be happy (or not un-happy).

*Assuming some parallel universe where I believe
**Christian Heaven and Hell as I was brought up believing in
***A lot of if statements in this. Worth pointing out that I come from the Southern baptist perspective that both DO exist and not that only heaven exists
****Presumed innocent until proven guilty. We are all guilty of something. The issue is whether or not their guilt warrants the punishment.

I like Observers response though. This is nothing more than a philosophical trap. The massage example is stupid. If I did not want it I would not enjoy it. You know why? BECAUSE I WOULD NOT HAVE FUCKING WANTED IT! That masseuse is violating my personal space. And if this were to occur in heaven I would quickly call down to hell for a good lawyer.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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05-09-2011, 12:18 PM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2011 12:23 PM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
(04-09-2011 10:45 PM)BGrambo Wrote:  So if I don't believe in being massaged, I wont be massaged? Also, if you're not god, how can you state whether or not I will go to heaven if I don't believe in god. I've never stated that the holy spirit doesn't exist, so perhaps this God will make an exception for me. Man wrote what god said, perhaps man made a few mistakes.

The point is, you are arguing the definition that people have created. You are not arguing the definition that god has created, because he doesn't exist. simply put, you are arguing a definition that someone has stated is X.

Now if you want to talk about how boring heaven would be, please state the heaven that you created in your mind will be boring. By definition arguing that you will get bored in the christian heaven is about at wrong as arguing you won't really get 72 virgins in islamic heaven, you will just get 56, or some stupid shit like that.

As for the Observer, we aren't arguing the practicality of heaven or possibility, just the definition. So to say infinity or X can't happen, lets revert back to the definition, magic...

For the bearded dude, revert back to Islamic heaven and arguing the definition. I'm arguing the definition people, not the possibility/practicality.

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05-09-2011, 12:52 PM
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
You step into the same philosophical trap twice NotSoVacous, Only now you came from an other direction...

Trying to argue for the definition of heaven is like trying to argue for the definition of a folagropation.

A what?
A folagropation.
What the fuck is a folagropa...
Oh... I saw what you did there...


Anyone with enough fantasy can go and try to define something alike. That doesn't make it more plausible though. It only taps into your brain that thinks something is more plausible when you can imagine it. (A trick sometimes called "the rule of typical things" and used by insurances salespersons, lotteries, -and yes- religions around the world)

Are you into philosophy?

Observer

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Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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05-09-2011, 02:56 PM
RE: Caller on The Atheist Experience 724
I can create my own definition of it but what good does that do? Did it ever occur to you that when an atheist says they will become bored in heaven it is because they have heard the definitions of it and think it will be boring in say, a few millennia? You could try making the argument that happiness is a construct of free will so saying that everyone is happy in heaven would imply that some are happy against their free will or because they don't have free will in heaven. But no one has ever said there is no free will in heaven so as long as that is how it is defined I fail to see why the argument that boredom will settle in is stupid.

I will close my eyes now and think of the Islamic heaven...
Your argument is still invalid. 72 virgins would eventually lose their virginity or become boring after a few millennia. Unless I don't have the power to choose my own emotions.

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