Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
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11-04-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 11:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  So, less than .7% of students take this class voluntarily, from what I read. Public schools in both the UK and the US (among other countries) teach math, reading and writing by force and most graduates can't balance a checkbook, understand a simple legal contract or, write a job resume.

And you're thinking that teaching people critical thinking by force will be different?

Frusty

Well its a start. It will at least help some people out. However there will always be people who can't be bothered to learn.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth." - Henry David Thoreau
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11-04-2013, 08:58 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 01:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 11:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  So, less than .7% of students take this class voluntarily, from what I read. Public schools in both the UK and the US (among other countries) teach math, reading and writing by force and most graduates can't balance a checkbook, understand a simple legal contract or, write a job resume.

And you're thinking that teaching people critical thinking by force will be different?

Frusty

By force? Now childhood education is force? Your ideology carries you into realms of unreason.

Chas, I don't know if you've looked into what property taxes are levied for but one of those things is public school. Not to mention, tax money also comes from the state and federal governments. Those monies are extracted from people regardless of whether or not they have children and if they do regardless of whether or not their children attend public school.

And regarding that last bit, if you have children and you do not wish them to attend public school, you must either pay for another school that follows the state's dictates or you must educate them yourself following the state's dictates.

And if you refuse any of the above, you can be fined, jailed or shot, depending on the circumstances.

I've debated statism with dozens of statists and most of them have the intellectual honesty to admit that governments use threats and violence to force their laws upon people while attempting to justify it. From you, all I get is hateful projections.

Do you honestly think that's productive or do you simply not care that you're being hateful and dishonest?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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11-04-2013, 09:27 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 08:58 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 01:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  By force? Now childhood education is force? Your ideology carries you into realms of unreason.

Chas, I don't know if you've looked into what property taxes are levied for but one of those things is public school. Not to mention, tax money also comes from the state and federal governments. Those monies are extracted from people regardless of whether or not they have children and if they do regardless of whether or not their children attend public school.

And regarding that last bit, if you have children and you do not wish them to attend public school, you must either pay for another school that follows the state's dictates or you must educate them yourself following the state's dictates.

And if you refuse any of the above, you can be fined, jailed or shot, depending on the circumstances.

I've debated statism with dozens of statists and most of them have the intellectual honesty to admit that governments use threats and violence to force their laws upon people while attempting to justify it. From you, all I get is hateful projections.

Do you honestly think that's productive or do you simply not care that you're being hateful and dishonest?

Your understanding of taxing people to pay for public schools is shit.

Even if you do not have children or you send your children to private school you still benefit from the public school system.
That doctor giving you heart surgery? yeah, probably had a public school education.
Dentist? probably Indian, but his son who also grows up to be a dentist probably used the public school system.
The point is that it is beneficial to all of society to pay for public school system because everyone benefits from having an educated populace.

Taxes pay for street lighting. I do not use every single road every single night and so my personal use of street lighting is limited. Yet I pay for all of it just the same as everyone else.

Are you suggesting that people only pay for street lighting on the streets and on the time of night that they actually use it?

How about cops/fireman. I have never needed the fire department, yet I pay for them through my taxes. The same with the police.

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11-04-2013, 09:44 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 09:27 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 08:58 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Chas, I don't know if you've looked into what property taxes are levied for but one of those things is public school. Not to mention, tax money also comes from the state and federal governments. Those monies are extracted from people regardless of whether or not they have children and if they do regardless of whether or not their children attend public school.

And regarding that last bit, if you have children and you do not wish them to attend public school, you must either pay for another school that follows the state's dictates or you must educate them yourself following the state's dictates.

And if you refuse any of the above, you can be fined, jailed or shot, depending on the circumstances.

I've debated statism with dozens of statists and most of them have the intellectual honesty to admit that governments use threats and violence to force their laws upon people while attempting to justify it. From you, all I get is hateful projections.

Do you honestly think that's productive or do you simply not care that you're being hateful and dishonest?

Your understanding of taxing people to pay for public schools is shit.

Even if you do not have children or you send your children to private school you still benefit from the public school system.
That doctor giving you heart surgery? yeah, probably had a public school education.
Dentist? probably Indian, but his son who also grows up to be a dentist probably used the public school system.
The point is that it is beneficial to all of society to pay for public school system because everyone benefits from having an educated populace.

Taxes pay for street lighting. I do not use every single road every single night and so my personal use of street lighting is limited. Yet I pay for all of it just the same as everyone else.

Are you suggesting that people only pay for street lighting on the streets and on the time of night that they actually use it?

How about cops/fireman. I have never needed the fire department, yet I pay for them through my taxes. The same with the police.

The social contract is accepted by almost everyone so when someone speaks out against it that really messes with people that never thought about it. Jeffe is not the first Anarchist I've met but he is the most consistent. He does however fall into a logical fallacy in that he regards everything positive about the contract as being separate from the costs.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-04-2013, 10:04 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 09:27 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Your understanding of taxing people to pay for public schools is shit.

Before I address your questions, can you explain to me why my understanding of coercion is, as you say, shit? Without arguments from effect, please.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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11-04-2013, 10:15 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 09:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 09:27 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Your understanding of taxing people to pay for public schools is shit.

Even if you do not have children or you send your children to private school you still benefit from the public school system.
That doctor giving you heart surgery? yeah, probably had a public school education.
Dentist? probably Indian, but his son who also grows up to be a dentist probably used the public school system.
The point is that it is beneficial to all of society to pay for public school system because everyone benefits from having an educated populace.

Taxes pay for street lighting. I do not use every single road every single night and so my personal use of street lighting is limited. Yet I pay for all of it just the same as everyone else.

Are you suggesting that people only pay for street lighting on the streets and on the time of night that they actually use it?

How about cops/fireman. I have never needed the fire department, yet I pay for them through my taxes. The same with the police.

The social contract is accepted by almost everyone so when someone speaks out against it that really messes with people that never thought about it. Jeffe is not the first Anarchist I've met but he is the most consistent. He does however fall into a logical fallacy in that he regards everything positive about the contract as being separate from the costs.

You'll have to first establish the legitimacy of the social contract before you can use it to assault my logic. Wink

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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11-04-2013, 10:16 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
There seems to be a certain undercurrent of animosity here and I think it's undermining the quality of of the discussion. It detracts from the ideas being presented. My two cents worth.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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11-04-2013, 10:41 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 10:15 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 09:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The social contract is accepted by almost everyone so when someone speaks out against it that really messes with people that never thought about it. Jeffe is not the first Anarchist I've met but he is the most consistent. He does however fall into a logical fallacy in that he regards everything positive about the contract as being separate from the costs.

You'll have to first establish the legitimacy of the social contract before you can use it to assault my logic. Wink

Did you enjoy not having to kill your dinner create your own heat and light source and not have to build your own shelter today? Did you use a single publicly owned thing today such as a non-private road or the internet that was developed by the government? That is the social contract we all look out for each other in exchange for certain responsibilities. You can go live off the grid if you want but you don't so you are accepting the contract but complaining about the bill.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-04-2013, 11:38 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 10:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 10:15 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  You'll have to first establish the legitimacy of the social contract before you can use it to assault my logic. Wink

Did you enjoy not having to kill your dinner create your own heat and light source and not have to build your own shelter today? Did you use a single publicly owned thing today such as a non-private road or the internet that was developed by the government? That is the social contract we all look out for each other in exchange for certain responsibilities. You can go live off the grid if you want but you don't so you are accepting the contract but complaining about the bill.

In that case, a slave, by eating his master's food and sleeping in the bed his master provides him, approves of his servitude. And if he doesn't he's either an ingrate or a would be thief.

I'm curious... if I had been born in a McDonalds restaurant, would I then owe Ray Croc's estate strict obedience and a portion of the fruits of my labor for life?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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11-04-2013, 11:49 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 11:38 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 10:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Did you enjoy not having to kill your dinner create your own heat and light source and not have to build your own shelter today? Did you use a single publicly owned thing today such as a non-private road or the internet that was developed by the government? That is the social contract we all look out for each other in exchange for certain responsibilities. You can go live off the grid if you want but you don't so you are accepting the contract but complaining about the bill.

In that case, a slave, by eating his master's food and sleeping in the bed his master provides him, approves of his servitude. And if he doesn't he's either an ingrate or a would be thief.

I'm curious... if I had been born in a McDonalds restaurant, would I then owe Ray Croc's estate strict obedience and a portion of the fruits of my labor for life?

No the better example is a someone living in your house that you ask to pay their fair share. They gain the benefits of having a place to live but must pay their dues to continue sharing in the benefits.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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