Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
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12-04-2013, 12:08 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 10:15 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Before I address your questions, can you explain to me why my understanding of coercion is, as you say, shit? Without arguments from effect, please.

Quote:Even if you do not have children or you send your children to private school you still benefit from the public school system.
That doctor giving you heart surgery? yeah, probably had a public school education.
Dentist? probably Indian, but his son who also grows up to be a dentist probably used the public school system.
The point is that it is beneficial to all of society to pay for public school system because everyone benefits from having an educated populace.

Taxes pay for street lighting. I do not use every single road every single night and so my personal use of street lighting is limited. Yet I pay for all of it just the same as everyone else.

Are you suggesting that people only pay for street lighting on the streets and on the time of night that they actually use it?

How about cops/fireman. I have never needed the fire department, yet I pay for them through my taxes. The same with the police.

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12-04-2013, 12:18 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 12:21 AM by Heathen.)
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 11:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 11:38 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  In that case, a slave, by eating his master's food and sleeping in the bed his master provides him, approves of his servitude. And if he doesn't he's either an ingrate or a would be thief.

I'm curious... if I had been born in a McDonalds restaurant, would I then owe Ray Croc's estate strict obedience and a portion of the fruits of my labor for life?

No the better example is a someone living in your house that you ask to pay their fair share. They gain the benefits of having a place to live but must pay their dues to continue sharing in the benefits.

Another important distinction is that the house-guest is free to leave if he is unhappy with the arrangement while the slave is not.

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I'm unable to sign your petition but I support your efforts. If nothing else, it will draw attention to the course of study. Good Luck!

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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12-04-2013, 06:22 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 08:58 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 01:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  By force? Now childhood education is force? Your ideology carries you into realms of unreason.

Chas, I don't know if you've looked into what property taxes are levied for but one of those things is public school. Not to mention, tax money also comes from the state and federal governments. Those monies are extracted from people regardless of whether or not they have children and if they do regardless of whether or not their children attend public school.

And regarding that last bit, if you have children and you do not wish them to attend public school, you must either pay for another school that follows the state's dictates or you must educate them yourself following the state's dictates.

And if you refuse any of the above, you can be fined, jailed or shot, depending on the circumstances.

I've debated statism with dozens of statists and most of them have the intellectual honesty to admit that governments use threats and violence to force their laws upon people while attempting to justify it. From you, all I get is hateful projections.

Do you honestly think that's productive or do you simply not care that you're being hateful and dishonest?

You just very dishonestly switched the argument from education to funding.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-04-2013, 06:30 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 11:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  And you're thinking that teaching people critical thinking by force will be different?

I think this is crux of the misunderstanding.
bbeljefe equates "force" to taxation, not clear from this statement.
Chas understandingly reads "force" as a physical compulsion.

On to the next item on the list...
(11-04-2013 11:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  In that case, a slave, by eating his master's food and sleeping in the bed his master provides him, approves of his servitude. And if he doesn't he's either an ingrate or a would be thief.

I think using "master" is a false analogy in the common understanding of the word. Revenant77x correctly points out that we live within the confines of a social contract thus making us participants and not slaves. That the contract involves compulsory shared burdens, such as taxation, does not, in my opinion, take it into the realm of the master/slave relationship. Perhaps if we lived in a monarchy or under a dictatorship where we, the people, had no voice/vote, the analogy would apply but not in a Republic.

Have at it.

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12-04-2013, 07:52 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(11-04-2013 08:58 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 01:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  By force? Now childhood education is force? Your ideology carries you into realms of unreason.

Chas, I don't know if you've looked into what property taxes are levied for but one of those things is public school. Not to mention, tax money also comes from the state and federal governments. Those monies are extracted from people regardless of whether or not they have children and if they do regardless of whether or not their children attend public school.

And regarding that last bit, if you have children and you do not wish them to attend public school, you must either pay for another school that follows the state's dictates or you must educate them yourself following the state's dictates.

And if you refuse any of the above, you can be fined, jailed or shot, depending on the circumstances.

I've debated statism with dozens of statists and most of them have the intellectual honesty to admit that governments use threats and violence to force their laws upon people while attempting to justify it. From you, all I get is hateful projections.

Do you honestly think that's productive or do you simply not care that you're being hateful and dishonest?

I am sorry that you see my responses as hateful. They are certainly not dishonest.

I see you wasting your time and energy on a totally unworkable, unrealizable Utopian dream. You'd do just as well working on perpetual motion machines.

I say this because human nature is against your vision just as it is against communism or other systems that rely on the perfectibility of human behavior.

Until and unless we evolve much further beyond what we are now, intelligent apes, there can be no society of the type you envision.

You could spend your time working to reduce coercion and help to guide society in more cooperative ways. You could achieve something instead of nothing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-04-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 06:30 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 11:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  And you're thinking that teaching people critical thinking by force will be different?

I think this is crux of the misunderstanding.
bbeljefe equates "force" to taxation, not clear from this statement.
Chas understandingly reads "force" as a physical compulsion.

On to the next item on the list...
(11-04-2013 11:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  In that case, a slave, by eating his master's food and sleeping in the bed his master provides him, approves of his servitude. And if he doesn't he's either an ingrate or a would be thief.

I think using "master" is a false analogy in the common understanding of the word. Revenant77x correctly points out that we live within the confines of a social contract thus making us participants and not slaves. That the contract involves compulsory shared burdens, such as taxation, does not, in my opinion, take it into the realm of the master/slave relationship. Perhaps if we lived in a monarchy or under a dictatorship where we, the people, had no voice/vote, the analogy would apply but not in a Republic.

Have at it.

Actually, both taxation and compulsory education are both forms force. Both are compulsory, which means there is a prescribed penalty for non compliance. Everyone understands perfectly that blackmail is force, although the term does not imply physical force. One can avoid the penalty in a blackmail case in exactly the same way he can avoid the penalty for tax evasion or compulsory schooling... by complying with the demands.

There is no social contract. There is a group of people who make and enforce rules within a geographical area. The fact that those people don't rule in perpetuity is irrelevant to the rules that are enforced, because it doesn't matter who the rulers are at a given time, the servitude is always present. We don't call a slave who has the opportunity to buy his freedom a free man and that's exactly what one must do in order to leave this plantation. Moreover, we do not allow a man to incur debts on behalf of his children, for obvious reasons, and we should not allow governments to do the same.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 07:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 08:58 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Chas, I don't know if you've looked into what property taxes are levied for but one of those things is public school. Not to mention, tax money also comes from the state and federal governments. Those monies are extracted from people regardless of whether or not they have children and if they do regardless of whether or not their children attend public school.

And regarding that last bit, if you have children and you do not wish them to attend public school, you must either pay for another school that follows the state's dictates or you must educate them yourself following the state's dictates.

And if you refuse any of the above, you can be fined, jailed or shot, depending on the circumstances.

I've debated statism with dozens of statists and most of them have the intellectual honesty to admit that governments use threats and violence to force their laws upon people while attempting to justify it. From you, all I get is hateful projections.

Do you honestly think that's productive or do you simply not care that you're being hateful and dishonest?

I am sorry that you see my responses as hateful. They are certainly not dishonest.

I see you wasting your time and energy on a totally unworkable, unrealizable Utopian dream. You'd do just as well working on perpetual motion machines.

I say this because human nature is against your vision just as it is against communism or other systems that rely on the perfectibility of human behavior.

Until and unless we evolve much further beyond what we are now, intelligent apes, there can be no society of the type you envision.

You could spend your time working to reduce coercion and help to guide society in more cooperative ways. You could achieve something instead of nothing.

You're making assertions based on the presumption that human beings will be exactly the same in 150 years as we are today. History or more apropos, evidence, disagrees with your presumption. Human beings do not exist in a vacuum and thus, human nature is not static.

If I took your advise, I'd be as apathetic as you and the result would be that I would perpetuate the violence in society rather than reducing it.

Slavery didn't end through apathy. Women didn't gain equal rights through apathy and, society has not become more peaceful through apathy.

In the end, if I die only managing to have stopped the cycle of violence in my family, I will have done more to make society peaceful than every person who participates in it combined. I've already achieved that goal and am working with some degree of success with a number of other families. And to think... I've done it all without pointing guns or making threats and without begging my rulers to train their guns on people I don't like.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2013, 11:07 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 10:35 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 06:30 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I think this is crux of the misunderstanding.
bbeljefe equates "force" to taxation, not clear from this statement.
Chas understandingly reads "force" as a physical compulsion.

On to the next item on the list...

I think using "master" is a false analogy in the common understanding of the word. Revenant77x correctly points out that we live within the confines of a social contract thus making us participants and not slaves. That the contract involves compulsory shared burdens, such as taxation, does not, in my opinion, take it into the realm of the master/slave relationship. Perhaps if we lived in a monarchy or under a dictatorship where we, the people, had no voice/vote, the analogy would apply but not in a Republic.

Have at it.

Actually, both taxation and compulsory education are both forms force. Both are compulsory, which means there is a prescribed penalty for non compliance. Everyone understands perfectly that blackmail is force, although the term does not imply physical force. One can avoid the penalty in a blackmail case in exactly the same way he can avoid the penalty for tax evasion or compulsory schooling... by complying with the demands.

There is no social contract. There is a group of people who make and enforce rules within a geographical area. The fact that those people don't rule in perpetuity is irrelevant to the rules that are enforced, because it doesn't matter who the rulers are at a given time, the servitude is always present. We don't call a slave who has the opportunity to buy his freedom a free man and that's exactly what one must do in order to leave this plantation. Moreover, we do not allow a man to incur debts on behalf of his children, for obvious reasons, and we should not allow governments to do the same.

Your slave analogy fails on multiple levels but here is the most basic one. A slave can never rise to become his own master but a member of society (in a republic at least) can at any time decide to run for office. I don't even mean President or US senator you can go down and register to run for city council in the next election were you so inclined. When you take that into account your not a slave you're a member of a society that offers more advantages than any other society in the history of mankind and are bickering about the bill.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-04-2013, 11:12 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 11:07 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Your slave analogy fails on multiple levels but here is the most basic one. A slave can never rise to become his own master but a member of society (in a republic at least) can at any time decide to run for office. I don't even mean President or US senator you can go down and register to run for city council in the next election were you so inclined. When you take that into account your not a slave you're a member of a society that offers more advantages than any other society in the history of mankind and are bickering about the bill.

No. In the vernacular of the time, I just become a house nigger. The mayor of your city is still indebted to the federal government. He still cannot expatriate without paying a ransom for his life and, his progeny are still born into servitude.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 11:12 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 11:07 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Your slave analogy fails on multiple levels but here is the most basic one. A slave can never rise to become his own master but a member of society (in a republic at least) can at any time decide to run for office. I don't even mean President or US senator you can go down and register to run for city council in the next election were you so inclined. When you take that into account your not a slave you're a member of a society that offers more advantages than any other society in the history of mankind and are bickering about the bill.

No. In the vernacular of the time, I just become a house nigger. The mayor of your city is still indebted to the federal government. He still cannot expatriate without paying a ransom for his life and, his progeny are still born into servitude.

City council passes an ordinance the Mayor signs it into law (at least in an incorporated city) at no point is he required to get permission from the federal government to pass said laws. They can be challenged if they violate the framework of government (the state and federal constitution) but neither of those are static documents. What your describing is a dictatorship not a republic. As long as you can affect change in the system you are not a slave.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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