Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
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12-04-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 11:25 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 11:12 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  No. In the vernacular of the time, I just become a house nigger. The mayor of your city is still indebted to the federal government. He still cannot expatriate without paying a ransom for his life and, his progeny are still born into servitude.

City council passes an ordinance the Mayor signs it into law (at least in an incorporated city) at no point is he required to get permission from the federal government to pass said laws. They can be challenged if they violate the framework of government (the state and federal constitution) but neither of those are static documents. What your describing is a dictatorship not a republic. As long as you can affect change in the system you are not a slave.

You're now bringing minutia in to defend your arguments against metaphor. But I'll play along... slaves could often convince their master to change a rule or make an exception. Especially the house nigger, as he or she was considered to be smarter, more useful or more trustworthy to the master than were the common slaves.

Also, slaves had a hierarchy among themselves but the higher ups among them couldn't invoke a rule that defied those of the master.

There's you mayor. Wink

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2013, 11:51 AM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 11:41 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 11:25 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  City council passes an ordinance the Mayor signs it into law (at least in an incorporated city) at no point is he required to get permission from the federal government to pass said laws. They can be challenged if they violate the framework of government (the state and federal constitution) but neither of those are static documents. What your describing is a dictatorship not a republic. As long as you can affect change in the system you are not a slave.

You're now bringing minutia in to defend your arguments against metaphor. But I'll play along... slaves could often convince their master to change a rule or make an exception. Especially the house nigger, as he or she was considered to be smarter, more useful or more trustworthy to the master than were the common slaves.

Also, slaves had a hierarchy among themselves but the higher ups among them couldn't invoke a rule that defied those of the master.

There's you mayor. Wink

A master however could unilaterally make decisions with no input by any of the slaves. The Government in a republic does not work like that.

I have explained my position rather well Social Contract, representative government, benefits and costs of citizenship. You claim there is no social contract and then jump immediately into inflammatory analogy of slavery then when I give an example of local government in action you accuse me of descending into minutia. I have stated what the Social Contract is and what it requires you claim there is no social contract but provide nothing to back that statement up so until you can provide some evidence of that, the rest of your position is moot.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-04-2013, 12:03 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
One petition to cover the entire UK... Hmm... you do know that the education in the different parts of Britain are run separately, don't you? I doubt one petition will do anything UK wide since the laws are different from country to country.

I'll still sign it though. Wink

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12-04-2013, 12:06 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
Canadia strikes again. What vengeance, it has.

I hope things turn out well with your petition! Yes

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12-04-2013, 01:00 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 11:51 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 11:41 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  You're now bringing minutia in to defend your arguments against metaphor. But I'll play along... slaves could often convince their master to change a rule or make an exception. Especially the house nigger, as he or she was considered to be smarter, more useful or more trustworthy to the master than were the common slaves.

Also, slaves had a hierarchy among themselves but the higher ups among them couldn't invoke a rule that defied those of the master.

There's you mayor. Wink

A master however could unilaterally make decisions with no input by any of the slaves. The Government in a republic does not work like that.

I have explained my position rather well Social Contract, representative government, benefits and costs of citizenship. You claim there is no social contract and then jump immediately into inflammatory analogy of slavery then when I give an example of local government in action you accuse me of descending into minutia. I have stated what the Social Contract is and what it requires you claim there is no social contract but provide nothing to back that statement up so until you can provide some evidence of that, the rest of your position is moot.

I've not claimed the existence of a contract that cannot be produced. Surely you don't expect me to prove a negative?

Perhaps you could post a copy of the one you signed so I can review it.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 01:00 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 11:51 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  A master however could unilaterally make decisions with no input by any of the slaves. The Government in a republic does not work like that.

I have explained my position rather well Social Contract, representative government, benefits and costs of citizenship. You claim there is no social contract and then jump immediately into inflammatory analogy of slavery then when I give an example of local government in action you accuse me of descending into minutia. I have stated what the Social Contract is and what it requires you claim there is no social contract but provide nothing to back that statement up so until you can provide some evidence of that, the rest of your position is moot.

I've not claimed the existence of a contract that cannot be produced. Surely you don't expect me to prove a negative?

Perhaps you could post a copy of the one you signed so I can review it.

Alright well we can start with this The Social Contract

for the overview and then move onto Thomas Paine for the basis of the American version of this enlightenment ideal.

Now the overview of this concept is this "A society can only exist at the will of the people in the society. This tacit consent is where any government gains it's legitimacy and it's authority. When a society loses the approval of it's citizenry it loses the basis by which it draws it's power."

This is the basis of the United States Constitution the "We the People..." and that document forms the basis of and groundwork for the formation and limits on the government. In the document are included means by which citizens can affect to change the government to more fully represent the will of the collected society.

This very thread is based on something a citizen can do to affect the government that represents them. So as to your central theme that the State has no right over you that is incorrect. The State can lose it's legitimacy if it is no longer fulfilling it's end of the contract but as of yet this has not happened. To see what a society that has lost it's legitimacy in governance looks like please see Syria.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-04-2013, 07:17 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 01:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:00 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  I've not claimed the existence of a contract that cannot be produced. Surely you don't expect me to prove a negative?

Perhaps you could post a copy of the one you signed so I can review it.

Alright well we can start with this The Social Contract

for the overview and then move onto Thomas Paine for the basis of the American version of this enlightenment ideal.

Now the overview of this concept is this "A society can only exist at the will of the people in the society. This tacit consent is where any government gains it's legitimacy and it's authority. When a society loses the approval of it's citizenry it loses the basis by which it draws it's power."

This is the basis of the United States Constitution the "We the People..." and that document forms the basis of and groundwork for the formation and limits on the government. In the document are included means by which citizens can affect to change the government to more fully represent the will of the collected society.

This very thread is based on something a citizen can do to affect the government that represents them. So as to your central theme that the State has no right over you that is incorrect. The State can lose it's legitimacy if it is no longer fulfilling it's end of the contract but as of yet this has not happened. To see what a society that has lost it's legitimacy in governance looks like please see Syria.

I don't see a document you signed. But since we're sharing our favorite early American Authors...

Lysander Spooner, No Treason, The Constitution of No Authority





This is the text version if you'd rather read it. Mr. Spooner was a very prolific writer of books and papers concerning law. He was virtually self taught and at around twenty three he successfully challenged the state of Massachusetts' law requiring attorneys to to intern for five years before they could begin their own practice. It might not sound like much of a victory but what it did was open the door to law for the poor and middle classed individuals who could not afford to work for free for five years on top of paying college tuition. Like now, only the sons of the rich could do that then.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2013, 07:27 PM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 07:30 PM by Revenant77x.)
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 07:17 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Alright well we can start with this The Social Contract

for the overview and then move onto Thomas Paine for the basis of the American version of this enlightenment ideal.

Now the overview of this concept is this "A society can only exist at the will of the people in the society. This tacit consent is where any government gains it's legitimacy and it's authority. When a society loses the approval of it's citizenry it loses the basis by which it draws it's power."

This is the basis of the United States Constitution the "We the People..." and that document forms the basis of and groundwork for the formation and limits on the government. In the document are included means by which citizens can affect to change the government to more fully represent the will of the collected society.

This very thread is based on something a citizen can do to affect the government that represents them. So as to your central theme that the State has no right over you that is incorrect. The State can lose it's legitimacy if it is no longer fulfilling it's end of the contract but as of yet this has not happened. To see what a society that has lost it's legitimacy in governance looks like please see Syria.

I don't see a document you signed. But since we're sharing our favorite early American Authors...

Lysander Spooner, No Treason, The Constitution of No Authority





This is the text version if you'd rather read it. Mr. Spooner was a very prolific writer of books and papers concerning law. He was virtually self taught and at around twenty three he successfully challenged the state of Massachusetts' law requiring attorneys to to intern for five years before they could begin their own practice. It might not sound like much of a victory but what it did was open the door to law for the poor and middle classed individuals who could not afford to work for free for five years on top of paying college tuition. Like now, only the sons of the rich could do that then.

A response to Spooner

Reading the argument and the response Spooner employs circular reasoning and falls apart when his assertions are held up to full scrutiny. This happens a lot with hero's of the libertarian movement.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-04-2013, 08:36 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 07:27 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 07:17 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  I don't see a document you signed. But since we're sharing our favorite early American Authors...

Lysander Spooner, No Treason, The Constitution of No Authority





This is the text version if you'd rather read it. Mr. Spooner was a very prolific writer of books and papers concerning law. He was virtually self taught and at around twenty three he successfully challenged the state of Massachusetts' law requiring attorneys to to intern for five years before they could begin their own practice. It might not sound like much of a victory but what it did was open the door to law for the poor and middle classed individuals who could not afford to work for free for five years on top of paying college tuition. Like now, only the sons of the rich could do that then.

A response to Spooner

Reading the argument and the response Spooner employs circular reasoning and falls apart when his assertions are held up to full scrutiny. This happens a lot with hero's of the libertarian movement.

This guy is arguing, a priori, that rights can only be established and protected by a state. This is simply not true and it is not what Spooner argued... ever. Natural rights are those which require no positive action from any other person. For example, in order that I respect your right to property, it is only necessary that I refrain from taking or damaging your property. I can respect your property rights without even knowing you and, I might add, without them being "a product of custom, intuition or statute". I can do ten million different things or I can do nothing at all and the whole while I am respecting your property rights.

Can you cite specific instances where you agree with this man's assertions? I can't find them, because he doesn't provide any but I'm sure you can. Once you have pointed them out, we can discuss them further.

Also, can you show me where there is a transcript of Spooner debating someone about his writings and, as you say, falling apart when they're scrutinized? I'd like to read that for myself because if I have something wrong, I want to correct it.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2013, 08:47 PM
RE: Calling all UK Critical Thinkers! Please consider signing my petition!
(12-04-2013 08:36 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 07:27 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  A response to Spooner

Reading the argument and the response Spooner employs circular reasoning and falls apart when his assertions are held up to full scrutiny. This happens a lot with hero's of the libertarian movement.

This guy is arguing, a priori, that rights can only be established and protected by a state. This is simply not true and it is not what Spooner argued... ever. Natural rights are those which require no positive action from any other person. For example, in order that I respect your right to property, it is only necessary that I refrain from taking or damaging your property. I can respect your property rights without even knowing you and, I might add, without them being "a product of custom, intuition or statute". I can do ten million different things or I can do nothing at all and the whole while I am respecting your property rights.

Can you cite specific instances where you agree with this man's assertions? I can't find them, because he doesn't provide any but I'm sure you can. Once you have pointed them out, we can discuss them further.

Also, can you show me where there is a transcript of Spooner debating someone about his writings and, as you say, falling apart when they're scrutinized? I'd like to read that for myself because if I have something wrong, I want to correct it.

Where did I claim any of that? You presented a text I read the text you presented and then went a step further found a critical response to the raised issues and then stated my opinion of both his work and the criticism. If you disagree with my opinion of Spooners stated position thats fine but don't try to pretend an exchange happened that did not happen. I'm not claiming to have a doctorate in the life and writings of Lysander Spooner but from the argument you supplied he was using circular reasoning.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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