Calling all physics experts
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24-05-2012, 11:31 PM
RE: Calling all physics experts
(24-05-2012 10:43 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(24-05-2012 07:11 AM)MrEchidna Wrote:  Hello, i'm a layman who loves science and seeks to understand something better. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. I know the most common interpretation is the Copenhagen Interpretation, but i don't really understand the full scope of what is meant by the different interpretations and which one is held in the highest scientific regard or looks most promising going forward. What i really would love to know, is if causality breaks down at these minute levels. I've had people tell me i'm an ignoramus and to look at De Broglie-Bohm theory when i don't really have the tools to understand even a fraction of it. If there's any person well versed in this stuff that could give an overview in terms a person who doesn't have a degree in advanced mathematics would understand, it would be much appreciated.
I can see how the deBroglie-Bohm theory would be attractive to theists because it is a causal theory. You can check out the wiki article on the idea while skipping all the math heavy parts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie–Bohm_theory

In particular, look at the section about the double slit experiment. It is the example Hawking builds upon in his recent book The Grand Design in order to explain his ideas about the nature of the universe to a lay audience. The book is well written and very accessible to the non-scientist. The wiki article on the double slit experiment also goes into a brief description of how the results are interpreted within a few interpretations of quantum mechanics (Hawking embraces the Feynman idea of a path integral interpretation--somewhat math laden idea, but Hawking does a great job explaining it in his book heavy lifting of math concepts):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

I do wonder, though, how a the deBroglie-Bohm theory can square causality with an experimental result like this where the observed affect precedes the cause:


http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/04/d...eforehand/
Ooooo thanks for the links! The people i talked to about De Broglie-Bohm weren't even theists, they were atheists who wanted to correct what they saw as a gap in my knowledge or misinformation. I really do love the atheist community because if your wrong, or at the very least slightly unfounded in what you say they take you to task on it and demand evidence or correct you if they know the right answer. If only the whole world could work with such a intellectual integrity.
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25-05-2012, 02:52 AM
RE: Calling all physics experts
I'm still confused with all this. Since I am not a mathematician, can someone explain to me is MrEchidna theist or atheist, or to formulate in differently, is he trying to prove or disprove God?

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25-05-2012, 09:09 AM
RE: Calling all physics experts
(25-05-2012 02:52 AM)Filox Wrote:  I'm still confused with all this. Since I am not a mathematician, can someone explain to me is MrEchidna theist or atheist, or to formulate in differently, is he trying to prove or disprove God?

Big Grin
Trying to Disprove God (as an omnipotent being) as the creator of our universe. The argument was meant to illustrate a dichotomy between a god as creator of our universe and modern physics.
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25-05-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: Calling all physics experts
(25-05-2012 09:09 AM)MrEchidna Wrote:  Trying to Disprove God (as an omnipotent being) as the creator of our universe. The argument was meant to illustrate a dichotomy between a god as creator of our universe and modern physics.
That was the point of my post; you can't do that.

The God playing dice quote was just to point that out in a funny way.

You would basically be, in a way, begging the question.

There is a reason why you will find theists hiding in the philosophically realm, and that is because science doesn't exist there.

To make an argument relying on modern science, you would have to first build an argument to logically substantiate science, and that is impossible.

You can conclude that science is reasonable to believe, but not based on logic; you would have to skip steps.

If we were going off a logical positivist point of view, then God would have already been proven not to exist.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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25-05-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: Calling all physics experts
Prove / disprove; dice / no dice.

Isn't the point to keep it all going... to continually look to the ever expanding universe... to the edge of ... entropy?

If there is an answer, everything stops.


And where's the fun in that? Wink
_______________________

It is refreshing for Non-Theists to meet a fellow puzzler and lover of questions, MrEchidna.

Welcome to the forum. Smile

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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25-05-2012, 01:27 PM
RE: Calling all physics experts
(25-05-2012 11:47 AM)kim Wrote:  If there is an answer, everything stops.

I know what you're trying to say, but I can't help myself:

There is an answer, and regardless of whether or not we know it, will be able to know it, or are able to know it, You're World Don't Stop.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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25-05-2012, 02:32 PM
RE: Calling all physics experts
(25-05-2012 11:12 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(25-05-2012 09:09 AM)MrEchidna Wrote:  Trying to Disprove God (as an omnipotent being) as the creator of our universe. The argument was meant to illustrate a dichotomy between a god as creator of our universe and modern physics.
That was the point of my post; you can't do that.

The God playing dice quote was just to point that out in a funny way.

You would basically be, in a way, begging the question.

There is a reason why you will find theists hiding in the philosophically realm, and that is because science doesn't exist there.

To make an argument relying on modern science, you would have to first build an argument to logically substantiate science, and that is impossible.

You can conclude that science is reasonable to believe, but not based on logic; you would have to skip steps.

If we were going off a logical positivist point of view, then God would have already been proven not to exist.
I don't take a logical positivist view, i like the critical rationalism of Karl Popper and the principles of falsifiability and such. Under that philosophical view, science is indeed substantiated. I realize my argument might not be the best way to attack the philosophical idea of god, and i know many other ways to do so. Its just it occurred to me awhile back that if an omnipotent being would have created the universe that there would be a noticeable effect on the universe, mainly making it exhibit signs of hard determinism. The argument i put forward is my own pet argument and i'm trying to refine it and make it better, and i realize and accept other tracks of debate. Though as for the "god doesn't play dice with the universe quote" in the vast majority of interpretations of quantum physics, that has been abandoned and proved wrong.
Also most theists i know don't hide in proper philosophy anymore, because it has moved beyond the kind of infantile notions of god for the most part. It's in the faux-philosophy that we call theology that they hide.
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25-05-2012, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2012 03:54 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Calling all physics experts
(25-05-2012 02:32 PM)MrEchidna Wrote:  It's in the faux-philosophy that we call theology that they hide.


And that's why it's so much fun to play "away" games, (in Theology) with them. If ya know their shit, ya can can throw it back. Tongue

BTW, is Echidna a "contraction" ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating Yogi, CAAT-LY.
Living daily with the high tragedy of being #2 on Laramie Hirsch's ignore list.
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25-05-2012, 04:05 PM
RE: Calling all physics experts
(25-05-2012 11:47 AM)kim Wrote:  Prove / disprove; dice / no dice.

Isn't the point to keep it all going... to continually look to the ever expanding universe... to the edge of ... entropy?

If there is an answer, everything stops.


And where's the fun in that? Wink
_______________________

It is refreshing for Non-Theists to meet a fellow puzzler and lover of questions, MrEchidna.

Welcome to the forum. Smile
Hahaha eloquently stated my fellow connoisseur of the mysterious. Thank you very much for the welcome, its a pleasure to be part of a community so dedicated to intellectual integrity.
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25-05-2012, 04:07 PM
RE: Calling all physics experts
(25-05-2012 03:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-05-2012 02:32 PM)MrEchidna Wrote:  It's in the faux-philosophy that we call theology that they hide.


And that's why it's so much fun to play "away" games, (in Theology) with them. If ya know their shit, ya can can throw it back. Tongue

BTW, is Echidna a "contraction" ?
the echidna is the only other mammal besides the platypus that lays eggs (monotremes) and also the variety of animal knuckles is for a Sonic fan such as myself Tongue
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