Calling out Islam
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13-09-2012, 05:27 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(13-09-2012 04:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-09-2012 02:46 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I really don't get it.

However I think for their religion to survive they will have to adapt, and adopt a softer, loving version of islam.




No virgins for you. Nope. No

You're not being a nice Brony. Yes

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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13-09-2012, 05:35 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
Hey, Seasbury.

I've been wanting to reply for about 24 hours. But for the first time in a long time, I've hesitated. Greatly.

Whatever I write, it won't matter. People are just gonna say, "Oh, Matt's defending Islam." I'm not. I don't actually defend any religion. I defend human beings; something that has been increasingly lacking on this forum as of late (and I am certainly not the only one who thinks that).

But that constant attack wears on me. It really does. A great teacher of mine once told me, "The worst thing you can do to another human being is to dismiss them." I agree with every fiber of my being and live by it.

I considered not responding. Of just saying, "Fuck it, it's not worth the pain." But that idea disgusted me. This is important to me. The question you asked is profound to me. What's going on today, this is what is defining our generation. This is what's going into the history books. We will be remembered throughout history for what we do here and now. I can't not speak. I can't do it. At the end of the day, I'm just some carbon blob who's gonna die. My life means very little. But for what little my life means, I must speak.

I don't like to give up. Not when I still have strength.

This being the case, I might as well just say what I feel.

---

I know why you can't see a way. Because you hate them.

Unfortunately, brother, you can't co-exist peacefully with those hate, or those you believe are evil, stupid, or inferior.

Conflict resolution requires the active participation of both sides. People who hate each other can't even sit down at the table to talk, let alone resolve a conflict.

What are you actually talking about? Defeating them.

Ask yourself. Are you truly interested in peace?

---

The video is not the culprit. The video is a flashpoint. In 1992 when the police officers responsible for beating Rodney King were acquitted, blacks in LA rioted. Fires were set. Stores were looted. Fifty eight people were killed. It wasn't a case of everything being sunny Sundays and roses for black people and then out of nowhere, they lost their shit. The situation for blacks in LA had been simmering, UNDEALT WITH, for years, decades, one can even say hundreds of years. That verdict was just the spark that ignited the gas that had built up for so long.

If someone after that riot were to say, "Fucking blacks," we would instantly brand them a racist. But for some reason, "fucking Muslims," is perfectly all right. For some reason, I can draw attention to the historical context of blacks in America and be treated seriously but I'm branded a Muslim and dismissed if I so much as mention the historical context of Muslims in the Middle East. I believe that people should contemplate that.

---

People have sort of short memories. The Cold War is on everyone's minds. Makes sense. It's recent. But there's this almost romanticised idea of two great superpowers duking it out. But those superpowers ain't got nuthin on Christianity and Islam. As much as people deny it, the West was built by Christians. Even the Atheists who left Christianity began as Christians. Christian tradition is ubiquitous in the West, so much so that we don't even think about it. And believe me, this is not some BS support for the Evangelical idea that the US was founded by Christians. Fuck that. It's just a recognition of where we come from and what our influences are. It also explains where we inherited our dislike of Islam.

Christianity and Islam have been fighting for hundreds of years. And for one simple reason. Because neither of them can take out the other. Oh they've tried. But Islam, unlike most of the foes that Christianity faces, is not a push over.

There's such a pervasive Orwellian attachment to the notion that history begins a few years ago. But it doesn't. It's looooooong. I feel in what you've written (and in several responses) this implied message that the tolerating Islam question is new. It is not. The difference today is that, for the first time in hundreds of years, the Christian West has the upper hand. No Islamic country can stand against the US, let alone NATO, in a conventional war; or God forbid in a nuclear one. No Islamic country can stand against the West economically; the sole exception being OPEC, but even they know not to push too hard. Islamic countries are left with one recourse; surrender or utilise asymmetric warfare. Obviously, they chose the latter.

Conflict is conflict and this is merely a conflict. It needs to be resolved. And conflict resolution requires the participation of everyone involved.

---

At the end of the day, as long as both sides don't want the other to exist, the fight will not end. Because the cost of losing is winking out of existence. Who would capitulate in that situation?

The real question is, what's the alternative to abandoning the search for peace? The answer is more war. More fighting. More death. More bombs. More hate. If you abandon the idea of peace, then the fighting continues indefinitely or until one side is dead (either physically or surrenders and is assimilated).

The way forward isn't more fighting. Unless you have the stomach to press the current military advantage and kill them all. Kill a billion people. Because that's really what we're talking about here.

---

What we need is an armistice. What we need is a path to peace. But in this climate, where hostilities are at such an escalated level, how do we get there? Muslims aren't about to surrender, so any plan that involves that is just straight up silly. But the Mitt Romney's of the world just want to fight to the death; or suggest that he does to score political points. Plus, as Orwell said, the war is not meant to be won, it's meant to be continuous. Romney would find that doubleplusgood.

---

Should moderates condemn the violence? Yes. They should. When sectarian violence broke out in India, Gandhi went on hunger strike until it ended. It almost killed him.

But the Muslim world is a world of great deprivation. Hope is hard to come by. And their great leaders haven't arisen yet because anger has proven a more powerful force. Some have, and many denounce the violence, but they are ignored even when they do manage to get airtime.

Quote:I condemn everyone and anyone who commits acts of terrorism.
-Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live (Hosted by Soledad O'Brien)

That these leaders have not yet arrived is not an excuse to, as Sam Harris would have us do, lump all Muslims into the same camp. He would have you accept that if they don't condemn it, then they not only condone it, they want it. More than that, they are it. He has created an argument that makes every single Muslim on the planet a terrorist; unsatisfied until they bathe in a river of your blood. Harris offers us but one thing; a seemingly logical rhetorical argument that allows us to hate all Muslims and still look like educated rational people. Have no doubt why I despise the man.

---

Every man of peace, be they Gandhi, Biko, MLK, advocated confrontation. Confrontation is not violence. Confrontation is the direct confronting of the conflict. Every man of peace advocated the use of confrontation as a means of resolving the conflict.





---

Quote: These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.

Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America — to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through — a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.

Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, “The past isn’t dead and buried. In fact, it isn’t even past.” We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven’t fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today’s black and white students.

Legalized discrimination — where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments — meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today’s urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one’s family, contributed to the erosion of black families — a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods — parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement — all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us.

This is the reality in which Reverend Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up. They came of age in the late '50s and early '60s, a time when segregation was still the law of the land and opportunity was systematically constricted. What’s remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many men and women overcame the odds; how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like me who would come after them.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the American Dream, there were many who didn’t make it — those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination. That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations — those young men and increasingly young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the men and women of Reverend Wright’s generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to gin up votes along racial lines, or to make up for a politician’s own failings.

And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright’s sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.

In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience — as far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything, they’ve built it from scratch. They’ve worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African-American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they’re told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren’t always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.

Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze — a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns — this too widens the racial divide and blocks the path to understanding.

This is where we are right now. It’s a racial stalemate we’ve been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naive as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy — particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

But I have asserted a firm conviction — a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people — that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice is we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.

-President Barack Hussein Obama

---

The Russians destroyed Grozny.
The Russians and Americans (and everyone else) attacked Afghanistan.
The Americans launch drone strikes all over the Middle East.
The Americans and British invaded Iraq.
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, mostly children, died during the ten years of embargo after the first Gulf War.
The Palestinians live under Apartheid.
The Iranians lived under the Shah for decades. A man put in place by Americans so BP could monopolise Iranian oil.
Countless dictators were supported by the US.
My Lebanese friend watched an American battleship fire on his home in Beirut in 1983.

The pain of Muslims in the Middle East runs deep.

We have to accept that.

We have to deal with it.

We need to confront these wounds, confront our part in them, revisit them, reopen them, cleanse them, dress them and heal them.





---

How do we love our neighbours as we love ourselves?

This is an age old question that is just as relevant today as it was when Jesus did or did not talk about it a couple millenia ago.

You want to know how to co-exist with them? Admit the wounds. Address the wounds. Heal the wounds. Allow both sides to replace their hate with love.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-09-2012, 05:35 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(13-09-2012 05:23 PM)aurora Wrote:  
(13-09-2012 05:17 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I was thinking more along the lines of Mercury.

I think Uranus would suit better Thumbsup

(thought I'd get in before Erx)

Well, Uranus is already full of the Christians, and Myanus is already full of the Jewish. Where are we gonna put the Moslems?

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13-09-2012, 05:43 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(13-09-2012 05:35 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Seasbury.

I've been wanting to reply for about 24 hours. But for the first time in a long time, I've hesitated. Greatly.

Whatever I write, it won't matter. People are just gonna say, "Oh, Matt's defending Islam." I'm not. I don't actually defend any religion. I defend human beings; something that has been increasingly lacking on this forum as of late (and I am certainly not the only one who thinks that).

But that constant attack wears on me. It really does. A great teacher of mine once told me, "The worst thing you can do to another human being is to dismiss them." I agree with every fiber of my being and live by it.

I considered not responding. Of just saying, "Fuck it, it's not worth the pain." But that idea disgusted me. This is important to me. The question you asked is profound to me. What's going on today, this is what is defining our generation. This is what's going into the history books. We will be remembered throughout history for what we do here and now. I can't not speak. I can't do it. At the end of the day, I'm just some carbon blob who's gonna die. My life means very little. But for what little my life means, I must speak.

I don't like to give up. Not when I still have strength.

This being the case, I might as well just say what I feel.

---

I know why you can't see a way. Because you hate them.

Unfortunately, brother, you can't co-exist peacefully with those hate, or those you believe are evil, stupid, or inferior.

Conflict resolution requires the active participation of both sides. People who hate each other can't even sit down at the table to talk, let alone resolve a conflict.

What are you actually talking about? Defeating them.

Ask yourself. Are you truly interested in peace?

---

The video is not the culprit. The video is a flashpoint. In 1992 when the police officers responsible for beating Rodney King were acquitted, blacks in LA rioted. Fires were set. Stores were looted. Fifty eight people were killed. It wasn't a case of everything being sunny Sundays and roses for black people and then out of nowhere, they lost their shit. The situation for blacks in LA had been simmering, UNDEALT WITH, for years, decades, one can even say hundreds of years. That verdict was just the spark that ignited the gas that had built up for so long.

If someone after that riot were to say, "Fucking blacks," we would instantly brand them a racist. But for some reason, "fucking Muslims," is perfectly all right. For some reason, I can draw attention to the historical context of blacks in America and be treated seriously but I'm branded a Muslim and dismissed if I so much as mention the historical context of Muslims in the Middle East. I believe that people should contemplate that.

---

People have sort of short memories. The Cold War is on everyone's minds. Makes sense. It's recent. But there's this almost romanticised idea of two great superpowers duking it out. But those superpowers ain't got nuthin on Christianity and Islam. As much as people deny it, the West was built by Christians. Even the Atheists who left Christianity began as Christians. Christian tradition is ubiquitous in the West, so much so that we don't even think about it. And believe me, this is not some BS support for the Evangelical idea that the US was founded by Christians. Fuck that. It's just a recognition of where we come from and what our influences are. It also explains where we inherited our dislike of Islam.

Christianity and Islam have been fighting for hundreds of years. And for one simple reason. Because neither of them can take out the other. Oh they've tried. But Islam, unlike most of the foes that Christianity faces, is not a push over.

There's such a pervasive Orwellian attachment to the notion that history begins a few years ago. But it doesn't. It's looooooong. I feel in what you've written (and in several responses) this implied message that the tolerating Islam question is new. It is not. The difference today is that, for the first time in hundreds of years, the Christian West has the upper hand. No Islamic country can stand against the US, let alone NATO, in a conventional war; or God forbid in a nuclear one. No Islamic country can stand against the West economically; the sole exception being OPEC, but even they know not to push too hard. Islamic countries are left with one recourse; surrender or utilise asymmetric warfare. Obviously, they chose the latter.

Conflict is conflict and this is merely a conflict. It needs to be resolved. And conflict resolution requires the participation of everyone involved.

---

At the end of the day, as long as both sides don't want the other to exist, the fight will not end. Because the cost of losing is winking out of existence. Who would capitulate in that situation?

The real question is, what's the alternative to abandoning the search for peace? The answer is more war. More fighting. More death. More bombs. More hate. If you abandon the idea of peace, then the fighting continues indefinitely or until one side is dead (either physically or surrenders and is assimilated).

The way forward isn't more fighting. Unless you have the stomach to press the current military advantage and kill them all. Kill a billion people. Because that's really what we're talking about here.

---

What we need is an armistice. What we need is a path to peace. But in this climate, where hostilities are at such an escalated level, how do we get there? Muslims aren't about to surrender, so any plan that involves that is just straight up silly. But the Mitt Romney's of the world just want to fight to the death; or suggest that he does to score political points. Plus, as Orwell said, the war is not meant to be won, it's meant to be continuous. Romney would find that doubleplusgood.

---

Should moderates condemn the violence? Yes. They should. When sectarian violence broke out in India, Gandhi went on hunger strike until it ended. It almost killed him.

But the Muslim world is a world of great deprivation. Hope is hard to come by. And their great leaders haven't arisen yet because anger has proven a more powerful force. Some have, and many denounce the violence, but they are ignored even when they do manage to get airtime.

Quote:I condemn everyone and anyone who commits acts of terrorism.
-Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live (Hosted by Soledad O'Brien)

That these leaders have not yet arrived is not an excuse to, as Sam Harris would have us do, lump all Muslims into the same camp. He would have you accept that if they don't condemn it, then they not only condone it, they want it. More than that, they are it. He has created an argument that makes every single Muslim on the planet a terrorist; unsatisfied until they bathe in a river of your blood. Harris offers us but one thing; a seemingly logical rhetorical argument that allows us to hate all Muslims and still look like educated rational people. Have no doubt why I despise the man.

---

Every man of peace, be they Gandhi, Biko, MLK, advocated confrontation. Confrontation is not violence. Confrontation is the direct confronting of the conflict. Every man of peace advocated the use of confrontation as a means of resolving the conflict.





---

Quote: These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.

Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America — to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through — a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.

Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, “The past isn’t dead and buried. In fact, it isn’t even past.” We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven’t fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today’s black and white students.

Legalized discrimination — where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments — meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today’s urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one’s family, contributed to the erosion of black families — a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods — parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement — all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us.

This is the reality in which Reverend Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up. They came of age in the late '50s and early '60s, a time when segregation was still the law of the land and opportunity was systematically constricted. What’s remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many men and women overcame the odds; how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like me who would come after them.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the American Dream, there were many who didn’t make it — those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination. That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations — those young men and increasingly young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the men and women of Reverend Wright’s generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to gin up votes along racial lines, or to make up for a politician’s own failings.

And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright’s sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.

In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience — as far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything, they’ve built it from scratch. They’ve worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African-American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they’re told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren’t always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.

Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze — a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns — this too widens the racial divide and blocks the path to understanding.

This is where we are right now. It’s a racial stalemate we’ve been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naive as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy — particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

But I have asserted a firm conviction — a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people — that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice is we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.

-President Barack Hussein Obama

---

The Russians destroyed Grozny.
The Russians and Americans (and everyone else) attacked Afghanistan.
The Americans launch drone strikes all over the Middle East.
The Americans and British invaded Iraq.
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, mostly children, died during the ten years of embargo after the first Gulf War.
The Palestinians live under Apartheid.
The Iranians lived under the Shah for decades. A man put in place by Americans so BP could monopolise Iranian oil.
Countless dictators were supported by the US.
My Lebanese friend watched an American battleship fire on his home in Beirut in 1983.

The pain of Muslims in the Middle East runs deep.

We have to accept that.

We have to deal with it.

We need to confront these wounds, confront our part in them, revisit them, reopen them, cleanse them, dress them and heal them.





---

How do we love our neighbours as we love ourselves?

This is an age old question that is just as relevant today as it was when Jesus did or did not talk about it a couple millenia ago.

You want to know how to co-exist with them? Admit the wounds. Address the wounds. Heal the wounds. Allow both sides to replace their hate with love.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

^^ Now that's being a nice Brony. Thumbsup

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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13-09-2012, 05:46 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(13-09-2012 05:35 PM)Ghost Wrote:  You want to know how to co-exist with them? Admit the wounds. Address the wounds. Heal the wounds. Allow both sides to replace their hate with love.

Lies and Lies and Lies,

Matt

Tell me how the Islamic world will permit any of the above.

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13-09-2012, 06:10 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(13-09-2012 05:27 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-09-2012 04:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  No virgins for you. Nope. No

You're not being a nice Brony. Yes

I've been browsing various muslim forums and reading their contents should be enough to show you guys how irrational it is. I have still yet to read the Qu'ran, but when I do.....

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13-09-2012, 06:37 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(13-09-2012 05:46 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(13-09-2012 05:35 PM)Ghost Wrote:  You want to know how to co-exist with them? Admit the wounds. Address the wounds. Heal the wounds. Allow both sides to replace their hate with love.

Lies and Lies and Lies,

Matt

Tell me how the Islamic world will permit any of the above.

Yeah, I'd like to know - whatchya got there Matt?

Seriously - I watched from a cross the river as the plane hit the Pentagon - I lost several coworkers and friends that day - yet I've never hated Muslims, or Islam for that matter - I hated extremists that want nothing more than kill Americans.

I watched a Sheik today issue a fatwa that permits sodomy as long as the purpose is to enlarge the anus to better fit explosives inside in order to conduct suicidal jihad - that's entertaining!

I don't disagree with what you wrote, but I think you're way off - where are you placing the onus?

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13-09-2012, 06:43 PM
RE: Calling out Islam




Reason with this...

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13-09-2012, 07:14 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
Yea I'm with Matt on this one.
You'll are quick to condemn but don't see the whole picture. You see one side of the story.

And it's not a matter of "do this and all will be solved", nobody has the answers to solve these problems but what we do know is that you can't just kill them all off.

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13-09-2012, 07:23 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(13-09-2012 07:14 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Yea I'm with Matt on this one.
You'll are quick to condemn but don't see the whole picture. You see one side of the story.

And it's not a matter of "do this and all will be solved", nobody has the answers to solve these problems but what we do know is that you can't just kill them all off.

Where did I ever suggest we should kill anyone? I have no desire to eliminate or exterminate Muslims or any human being.

I'm suggesting, positing, thinking, engaging, the idea that maybe we need to take a more insular approach and withdraw completely from interaction with these people unil they can moderate. Those countries, Islamic or not, whose populates don't take to the streets in bloodlust because of a cartoon, or a shitty YouTube video, we should continue to engage with - all others, see you in 300-400 years when your religion begins tilting towards civilized...

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