Calling out Islam
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-09-2012, 01:06 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(14-09-2012 12:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Not condemning it is just not condemning it. That's all. If you think that amounts to agreeing with it, you should realize that you are putting that interpretation on it. There are many possible explanations for why the leaders don't condemn it. The extremists are obviously prone to violence - bombing, beheading, torturing, etc. - so it's quite plausible that the good Muslims don't condemn the extremists simply out of fear. It's easy for us way across the ocean protected by our military and surveillance systems to say "they should speak up and condemn it". I think we ought to try harder to put ourselves in their shoes. Furthermore, I've had a similar discussion on another board a long time ago and I remember finding instances where Muslims have spoken up and condemned the extremist actions.

The moderates are not *seen* to be condemning it, which is why the stereotype persists that Muslims are violent. Their *leaders*, the moderate leaders who apparently so outnumber the extremists that to tar them with the same brush is downright criminal, should feel safe enough and *angry* enough that they are being painted as violent, to make greater efforts to be heard. After all if the moderates are so numerous and only a few bad apples are ruining their religion's reputation...

But your point is taken. I think that the extremists are more numerous, and more powerful, and hence that is maybe why the moderate *minority* is not more vocal... or maybe not more numerous but... they have a lever and a fulcrum and boy do they not mind swinging it. Also I guess the media aren't that super interested in sensible people saying sensible things - what sells newspapers are death threats...

Having said that every single Muslim I have ever met personally and have ever discussed such things with has outright condemned these acts of terrorism. No single Muslim that I have ever met has viewed these with anything but contempt. Their *leaders* need to be heard making the same points. I am in South Africa, and while we have our own problems religion tends to be at the back of a long queue of others. On the international stage religion, especially the clash between Islam and Christianity, is much more dominant.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
14-09-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(14-09-2012 01:06 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 12:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Not condemning it is just not condemning it. That's all. If you think that amounts to agreeing with it, you should realize that you are putting that interpretation on it. There are many possible explanations for why the leaders don't condemn it. The extremists are obviously prone to violence - bombing, beheading, torturing, etc. - so it's quite plausible that the good Muslims don't condemn the extremists simply out of fear. It's easy for us way across the ocean protected by our military and surveillance systems to say "they should speak up and condemn it". I think we ought to try harder to put ourselves in their shoes. Furthermore, I've had a similar discussion on another board a long time ago and I remember finding instances where Muslims have spoken up and condemned the extremist actions.

The moderates are not *seen* to be condemning it, which is why the stereotype persists that Muslims are violent. Their *leaders*, the moderate leaders who apparently so outnumber the extremists that to tar them with the same brush is downright criminal, should feel safe enough and *angry* enough that they are being painted as violent, to make greater efforts to be heard. After all if the moderates are so numerous and only a few bad apples are ruining their religion's reputation...

But your point is taken. I think that the extremists are more numerous, and more powerful, and hence that is maybe why the moderate *minority* is not more vocal... or maybe not more numerous but... they have a lever and a fulcrum and boy do they not mind swinging it. Also I guess the media aren't that super interested in sensible people saying sensible things - what sells newspapers are death threats...

Having said that every single Muslim I have ever met personally and have ever discussed such things with has outright condemned these acts of terrorism. No single Muslim that I have ever met has viewed these with anything but contempt. Their *leaders* need to be heard making the same points. I am in South Africa, and while we have our own problems religion tends to be at the back of a long queue of others. On the international stage religion, especially the clash between Islam and Christianity, is much more dominant.
The fear was just an example of a reason they may not outwardly condemn the extremist actions. You have a point about the moderates, but I just posted in another thread and I think it addresses the lack of condemnation more thoroughly. I think there are a variety of reasons for it and I believe my other post covers one of the more significant ones for the Muslims who live in the Middle East. This was my post: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid170080

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-09-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Calling out Islam



Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-09-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(14-09-2012 01:26 PM)Impulse Wrote:  The fear was just an example of a reason they may not outwardly condemn the extremist actions. You have a point about the moderates, but I just posted in another thread and I think it addresses the lack of condemnation more thoroughly. I think there are a variety of reasons for it and I believe my other post covers one of the more significant ones for the Muslims who live in the Middle East. This was my post: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid170080

Good post. Conditions are different on the ground. Definitely if I grew up say in Egypt I'd have a far different opinion on these things. But... one can't help thinking... you know, war is a deliberate act. You pick up a gun and pull the trigger. You don't *have* to. But somehow we manage to convince ourselves that if we *don't* kill that guy first, he's gonna kill us, so we say "well, it's not really a choice then is it? I'm just doing what I have to to protect my own"... But... that guy over there... he's got a wife, kids maybe... all he really wants to do is read a book, maybe go for a run at the end of the day. Earn his way. I can't believe that anyone aside from the odd crackpot sits up at night thinking "I'd be much happier if I could kill an American", regardless of rhetoric...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
14-09-2012, 01:49 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
When you read Islam do you associate the word with a religion, or a collection of countries with a muslim majority?

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-09-2012, 02:42 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
For you guys looking for the moderates to condemn violence or trying to parse out the extremists, don't bother. It's not that all people of Muslim faith are crazed killers. They mostly want to just go about their lives in peace like everyone else.

You have to find the "root problem". The irritation that's under all Muslim’s skin. The one thing that pisses them all off.

Mohammad predicted that Islam would take over the world because all would see that Islam was the perfect true religion. There would be no need for war or conflict. The choice would be a no-brainer. Everyone would desire to be Muslim. They just needed to hear the truth.

How is that worked out? No

Islam is being rejected by the world outside of Islam. Muslims are suspected of evil intent in western countries. They are profiled as terrorists. Islam is considered to be a violent and oppressive religion with 12th century values.

The profit was wrong. That's the problem. Muslims are pissed that they are considered ignorant, backwards, the rednecks of the world. Look at the commentary of the western world's intellectuals. Many call Islam the biggest threat to world peace. Atheist rank Islam as the worst example of religious dogma.

From all sides Islam is being attacked, degraded, dismissed and ridiculed.

This is why they are burning ALL western Embassies in their countries, not just the US. It has nothing to do with a film that some no-name low rent producer made in the US.

It's the universal lack of respect shown to Islam and the failure of Islam to take over the world.

Now you know why they fight.
Why they are so angry.
Why Matt is so angry.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thomas's post
14-09-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(14-09-2012 01:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 01:26 PM)Impulse Wrote:  The fear was just an example of a reason they may not outwardly condemn the extremist actions. You have a point about the moderates, but I just posted in another thread and I think it addresses the lack of condemnation more thoroughly. I think there are a variety of reasons for it and I believe my other post covers one of the more significant ones for the Muslims who live in the Middle East. This was my post: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid170080

Good post. Conditions are different on the ground. Definitely if I grew up say in Egypt I'd have a far different opinion on these things. But... one can't help thinking... you know, war is a deliberate act. You pick up a gun and pull the trigger. You don't *have* to. But somehow we manage to convince ourselves that if we *don't* kill that guy first, he's gonna kill us, so we say "well, it's not really a choice then is it? I'm just doing what I have to to protect my own"... But... that guy over there... he's got a wife, kids maybe... all he really wants to do is read a book, maybe go for a run at the end of the day. Earn his way. I can't believe that anyone aside from the odd crackpot sits up at night thinking "I'd be much happier if I could kill an American", regardless of rhetoric...
Agreed. However, the anger is still there even if the majority know how to deal with it. So when a film comes along like the one that provoked the embassy attack, it comes out as a spontaneous reaction from some of them, not premeditated like the fewer extremists.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-09-2012, 02:57 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(14-09-2012 01:49 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  When you read Islam do you associate the word with a religion, or a collection of countries with a muslim majority?
Islam itself is a religion so generally I associate the word with the religion, but the real answer to your question is "it depends" because some people write and speak sloppily and end up writing/saying "Islam" when they really mean "Muslim".

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-09-2012, 03:11 PM
RE: Calling out Islam
(14-09-2012 02:42 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The profit was wrong. That's the problem. Muslims are pissed that they are considered ignorant, backwards, the rednecks of the world. Look at the commentary of the western world's intellectuals. Many call Islam the biggest threat to world peace. Atheist rank Islam as the worst example of religious dogma.

You know, it's interesting to consider that at one time, Alexandria was the intellectual capital of the world. Scholars traveled from all over the western world just to meet and learn and study in Alexandria.

Of course, that was pre-Islam, but geographically it's located very near the heart of the modern Muslim world.

That same part of the world had the best science, the best math, the best literature, the best culture, and (sometimes) the best military might.

Now they have none of that. Not even competitive. Not even in the same ballpark as the rest of the "modernized" world.

What changed? Why did they fall from the top of all things to their lowly position at the bottom of all things?

Well, part of it was Islam. The whole ideology that the entire country comes under one religion, a very totalitarian religion that squelches (usually violently) all other dissenting ideas or ideologies. Country after country came under the sway of Islam, and as Islam grew more dominant in each country, all other ideas became less prevalent. Ideas like education, science, discovery, social engineering, etc. All gone.

Was Islam the only reason? Probably not. But it sure is a major reason. When anyone speaks out about a better way to understand the world, or a better way to govern a nation, or a better way to educate their children, Islam (yes, I'm using the term very loosely) steps in, slams the door, and shuts down this radical new idea before it can take root and threaten to undermine Islam's choke hold on its world.

Sure, I get it. It's not "Islam" doing this, but power-hungry religious leaders determined to keep their people miserable and uneducated so their only hope in their dismal lives is Islam. Nevertheless, it's the idea that Islam is more important than anything else, more important than individuality, education, reason; more important than the state, more important than life itself, that creates the culture where Muslims allow Islam to topple their once mighty culture and smash it to miserable bits at the feet of the western world.

So when you say "Muslims are pissed that they are considered ignorant, backwards, the rednecks of the world.", you're right. They are pissed and they should be. They are ignorant and backwards. In fact, compared to the height of Alexandria, much of the Middle Eastern Muslim world is backward compared to that standard - Egyptians in Alexandria lived better 2200 years ago, better education, better culture, better freedoms, better lifestyle, etc., than many people in the Middle East live today.

It's truly sad.

And they should be really really really pissed about that.

But should they be pissed at American (or any other) embassies? Should they be pissed at lousy filmmakers? Should they be pissed at cartoonists? Should they be pissed at Sam Harris?

No, no, no, and no.

They SHOULD be pissed at Islam, or more specifically, at the way their religious and political leaders use Islam as a tool to keep them ignorant and backwards.

That's what should really piss them off.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Aseptic Skeptic's post
14-09-2012, 03:18 PM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2012 03:30 PM by Chas.)
RE: Calling out Islam
(14-09-2012 03:11 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 02:42 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The profit was wrong. That's the problem. Muslims are pissed that they are considered ignorant, backwards, the rednecks of the world. Look at the commentary of the western world's intellectuals. Many call Islam the biggest threat to world peace. Atheist rank Islam as the worst example of religious dogma.

You know, it's interesting to consider that at one time, Alexandria was the intellectual capital of the world. Scholars traveled from all over the western world just to meet and learn and study in Alexandria.

Of course, that was pre-Islam, but geographically it's located very near the heart of the modern Muslim world.

That same part of the world had the best science, the best math, the best literature, the best culture, and (sometimes) the best military might.

Now they have none of that. Not even competitive. Not even in the same ballpark as the rest of the "modernized" world.

What changed? Why did they fall from the top of all things to their lowly position at the bottom of all things?

Well, part of it was Islam. The whole ideology that the entire country comes under one religion, a very totalitarian religion that squelches (usually violently) all other dissenting ideas or ideologies. Country after country came under the sway of Islam, and as Islam grew more dominant in each country, all other ideas became less prevalent. Ideas like education, science, discovery, social engineering, etc. All gone.

Was Islam the only reason? Probably not. But it sure is a major reason. When anyone speaks out about a better way to understand the world, or a better way to govern a nation, or a better way to educate their children, Islam (yes, I'm using the term very loosely) steps in, slams the door, and shuts down this radical new idea before it can take root and threaten to undermine Islam's choke hold on its world.

Sure, I get it. It's not "Islam" doing this, but power-hungry religious leaders determined to keep their people miserable and uneducated so their only hope in their dismal lives is Islam. Nevertheless, it's the idea that Islam is more important than anything else, more important than individuality, education, reason; more important than the state, more important than life itself, that creates the culture where Muslims allow Islam to topple their once mighty culture and smash it to miserable bits at the feet of the western world.

So when you say "Muslims are pissed that they are considered ignorant, backwards, the rednecks of the world.", you're right. They are pissed and they should be. They are ignorant and backwards. In fact, compared to the height of Alexandria, much of the Middle Eastern Muslim world is backward compared to that standard - Egyptians in Alexandria lived better 2200 years ago, better education, better culture, better freedoms, better lifestyle, etc., than many people in the Middle East live today.

It's truly sad.

And they should be really really really pissed about that.

But should they be pissed at American (or any other) embassies? Should they be pissed at lousy filmmakers? Should they be pissed at cartoonists? Should they be pissed at Sam Harris?

No, no, no, and no.

They SHOULD be pissed at Islam, or more specifically, at the way their religious and political leaders use Islam as a tool to keep them ignorant and backwards.

That's what should really piss them off.

But at the very core of Islam, you're not allowed to be pissed off, and you are most certainly not allowed to say you're pissed off.

The core beliefs of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism contain anti-human, anti-freedom, anti-rational tenets and are thereby disgusting systems that should be radically altered or eliminated.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: