Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
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06-12-2011, 08:50 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 08:45 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-12-2011 08:44 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2011 08:41 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-12-2011 12:29 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So in order to refute the "No True Scotsman" aspect of your argument, you reinforce and emphasize the "No True Scotsman" points of your argument. Do you find this tactic works elsewhere? Ain't gonna fly here. ... In all frankness brother, until you give up all this jibber jabber you can never be elect.

No. I'm reinforcing my argument with the Bible, which is an authority in this discussion.

Using the Bible as an authoritative reference won't fly here, either.

When talking about a Christian doctrine? How come?

Good point, sorry.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2011, 09:24 AM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2011 09:26 AM by morondog.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 08:41 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Now, I'm going to stop discussing this. It's obvious that I've gone too far (but I've been honest), and that I'm really making people disgusted and offended by my beliefs. This was never my intention, and I would never maliciously or intentionally offend anyone.

Fair enough. FTR I personally haven't found reason to be offended or disgusted... But we have reached a point in the discussion where it seems to be dragging a bit, so probably a good idea to call it quits.

My feeling is you might accept the doctrine, but in terms of how you act in your life I bet you behave much as any other caring person would. I'm not even sure of what Calvinistic doctrine with regard to how you should act in this life is. I'll assume it's pretty straightforward "be nice to other people" stuff like most religion, with a bit of random stuff thrown in. Getting hung up on obscure theology (or even not so obscure atheist/Christian stuff) would be a stupid reason not to be friendly Smile
Incidentally, trivia from reading the wikipedia page (no link, sorry Tongue) Calvin of Calvin and Hobbes fame is named after the very same Jean Calvin who originated Calvinism Smile
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06-12-2011, 10:04 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
Hey WTF? Now I have a question for kings. C'mon back for a sec please?

You believe in predestination yes? That god has everything planned out and it is his will and whoever is chosen now was already chosen and you feel as though you are chosen yes? (for the record, I believe that if there were a god and the bible were true that you'd be right)

My question is actually this (supposing that the above is true) your life is pretty nice right now I have to assume (mostly because you seem like a nice chap with a no offense intended, pretty good looking wife, way to go by the way) but would you still feel like you were elected if your life took a turn for the horrible? Like I mean real sucky side of life. Let's say, you lost your job, your wife left you for some reason, you got in a car accident and lost a leg and were put on prescription pain killers that you became addicted to and the government was refuting your claim to disability meanwhile your landlord was demanding rent (or mortgage depending on your situation) and due to the abuse of pain pills your insides are beginning to hurt. All the while you still attend church and pray to god asking why (rhetorically of course) and nothing gets better. Would you still feel chosen? If so why? If not why? And how come the chosen never seem to be poor homeless people? If those people say they are chosen the best they get is a padded cell.

Anyways, just curious.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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06-12-2011, 10:47 AM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2011 11:02 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 10:04 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Hey WTF? Now I have a question for kings. C'mon back for a sec please?

You believe in predestination yes? That god has everything planned out and it is his will and whoever is chosen now was already chosen and you feel as though you are chosen yes? (for the record, I believe that if there were a god and the bible were true that you'd be right)

My question is actually this (supposing that the above is true) your life is pretty nice right now I have to assume (mostly because you seem like a nice chap with a no offense intended, pretty good looking wife, way to go by the way) but would you still feel like you were elected if your life took a turn for the horrible? Like I mean real sucky side of life. Let's say, you lost your job, your wife left you for some reason, you got in a car accident and lost a leg and were put on prescription pain killers that you became addicted to and the government was refuting your claim to disability meanwhile your landlord was demanding rent (or mortgage depending on your situation) and due to the abuse of pain pills your insides are beginning to hurt. All the while you still attend church and pray to god asking why (rhetorically of course) and nothing gets better. Would you still feel chosen? If so why? If not why? And how come the chosen never seem to be poor homeless people? If those people say they are chosen the best they get is a padded cell.

Anyways, just curious.

Yes.

I have been laid off (a week before I found out I was going to have another kid). I have been addicted to drugs (painkillers).

My father is terminally ill with a rare disease that has completely destroyed his quality of life, yet he has more faith in God than anyone I've ever known. He is my earthly role model, and if he can respond to hardship like that then I can as well. As I've said before, I know that the God of the universe has plans for me according to His perfect will. I can't argue with that regardless of what happens. As the Bible says (Paul), I am convinced that there is nothing in this world that could rip me from Christ. He chose me from the beginning of time until the end of eternity (sic).

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06-12-2011, 10:59 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 10:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  As I've said before, I know that the God of the universe has plans for me according to His perfect will. ... He chose me from the beginning of time until the end of eternity (sic).

This is where there is a problem. You can't know this, you can only believe this.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2011, 11:10 AM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2011 11:19 AM by Erxomai.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 10:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2011 10:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  As I've said before, I know that the God of the universe has plans for me according to His perfect will. ... He chose me from the beginning of time until the end of eternity (sic).

This is where there is a problem. You can't know this, you can only believe this.

Yes, Chas, for we "outsiders", it is a belief. But the True Believer KNOWS this stuff in the fiber of their very being. It isn't thought, it isn't belief. It's a real relationship. This is the I-Thou Relationship that Martin Buber and others talk about. The True Believer's understanding of Everything is predicated upon a Real Relationship with the Living God. Therefore, there is no amount of debate that will get you to change a True Believer's mind, because their knowing is just as strong as our knowing we'll get drunk if we drink too many beers. The discussion always has to end at this point, because the True Believer doesn't think he's right, he knows it. It's not "narrow-mindedness" to the insider, it's depth of Relationship with Other. For the same reason, the True Believer will never convince you, because you do not have this Relationship. This is where the impasse will remain until you either receive the call of the Holy Spirit upon your life, or until the True Believer takes a break from the indoctrination of group think and begins to think outside the parochial box.

PS: (I don't mean communication has to end, I just mean the topical discussion ends it's course. Usually it turns into firing snarky and nasty shots at one another when someone gets offended: Such as the person who spent a lifetime loving God with their entire fiber becoming offended at being told that it was all just hollow, empty motion when they admit they no longer believe in God...how fucked up is that?--not being told that, but being offended by it? The weird thing is, I already feel my life was hollow and empty for loving a God Who Is Not There, yet, through no fault of KC, it cuts even deeper to think that it not only was all for naught in my mind, but it was all for naught in a Believer's mind as well.)

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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06-12-2011, 11:15 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ....God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

So..... The picture below represents God's perfect plan....

[Image: starvation.jpg]

I dunno king... Your God is not doing a very good job. Somewhere he's got things all fucked up.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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06-12-2011, 11:15 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
Cool cool. However none of that happened at once and things did get better so really there is no way to know for sure but I'll take your answer because really its the only one possible.

Another question more related to Calvinism I s'pose, if everything is preordained then isn't faith pointless? I mean does it matter whether you have faith in something if you know it's going to happen regardless of whether you believe in it or not?

Or if Calvinism is more of a literal interpretation o the bible then how come it seems to disregard the whole free will part in favor of the chosen? I'm probably wrong about all of that because as I stated I am unfamiliar with Calvinism so beat with me please.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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06-12-2011, 11:21 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 11:15 AM)lucradis Wrote:  I'm probably wrong about all of that because as I stated I am unfamiliar with Calvinism so beat with me please.

Wait, beat with you as in off? or as in, we can grab nickel filled socks and beat you? Either way, I could probably be convinced to join in.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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06-12-2011, 12:01 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
Hahahahhah I should learn to proof read. But then again half the fun is in realizing your mistakes and making fun of them endlessly. I haven't been a part of any circle jerks since pre schoo.... oh wait nvm.

I meant bear. Let me check and make sure it says bear... yep ok I'm good lol.

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