Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
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06-12-2011, 01:18 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 11:15 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Cool cool. However none of that happened at once and things did get better so really there is no way to know for sure but I'll take your answer because really its the only one possible.

Well, in my opinion, the worse things get, the more inclined you are to cling to God - to cling to a hope that something more powerful than you is in control.

Quote:Another question more related to Calvinism I s'pose, if everything is preordained then isn't faith pointless? I mean does it matter whether you have faith in something if you know it's going to happen regardless of whether you believe in it or not?

It actually takes more faith to believe what I believe. I relinquish all my power and put my full belief that God is in control. I have faith that God has a plan for me. This take more faith because you cannot do anything to affect instances in your life. The point of my faith is to believe in an ultimate being that has planned everything out. When you think about, this is an insane leap of faith.

Quote:Or if Calvinism is more of a literal interpretation o the bible then how come it seems to disregard the whole free will part in favor of the chosen? I'm probably wrong about all of that because as I stated I am unfamiliar with Calvinism so beat with me please.

I don't believe free will is taught in the Bible. I believe the Bible is steadfast in saying that God is in complete control.

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06-12-2011, 01:45 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
OO OO OO I have another question teach!!! Pick me pick me!!! My hands up!!

If there is no free will and there is a plan for everything then what do you think would happen if you were to just like... sit there and watch tv all day everyday? Would god come down and pick your ass up and drag you to work and be all like "hey jerk, this is my plan so keep at it or else"? or would you not be able to just sit there as part of an experiment? or would it be part of his plan to have you sitting there wasting your life awaY?

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06-12-2011, 01:52 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 01:45 PM)lucradis Wrote:  OO OO OO I have another question teach!!! Pick me pick me!!! My hands up!!

If there is no free will and there is a plan for everything then what do you think would happen if you were to just like... sit there and watch tv all day everyday? Would god come down and pick your ass up and drag you to work and be all like "hey jerk, this is my plan so keep at it or else"? or would you not be able to just sit there as part of an experiment? or would it be part of his plan to have you sitting there wasting your life awaY?

Haha, you crack me up, mang. You really do.

But yeah, your assumption is that I have the free will to just sit on my butt all day and do nothing. God's will is completely 100% irresistible. Meaning: I couldn't choose to just do nothing because "something" inside me would drive me to productivity... or whatever. God's will affects my mindset, my nature, my wants, etc.

BUT, for the sake of argument, if I was just sitting on my butt all day, it would be for a reason. God's plan for my life (or that moment) was to sit on my butt all day - why? I don't know. Even though this is a hypothetical situation there are several things that could happen. He could reveal something to me. He could have me there waiting on someone for some reason. Etc, etc, etc

Does this at all make sense?

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06-12-2011, 02:22 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 01:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-12-2011 01:45 PM)lucradis Wrote:  OO OO OO I have another question teach!!! Pick me pick me!!! My hands up!!

If there is no free will and there is a plan for everything then what do you think would happen if you were to just like... sit there and watch tv all day everyday? Would god come down and pick your ass up and drag you to work and be all like "hey jerk, this is my plan so keep at it or else"? or would you not be able to just sit there as part of an experiment? or would it be part of his plan to have you sitting there wasting your life awaY?

Haha, you crack me up, mang. You really do.

But yeah, your assumption is that I have the free will to just sit on my butt all day and do nothing. God's will is completely 100% irresistible. Meaning: I couldn't choose to just do nothing because "something" inside me would drive me to productivity... or whatever. God's will affects my mindset, my nature, my wants, etc.

BUT, for the sake of argument, if I was just sitting on my butt all day, it would be for a reason. God's plan for my life (or that moment) was to sit on my butt all day - why? I don't know. Even though this is a hypothetical situation there are several things that could happen. He could reveal something to me. He could have me there waiting on someone for some reason. Etc, etc, etc

Does this at all make sense?

Yes, if you believe in God's chosen robots. Really, these beliefs are demeaning to human dignity; Calvinism has always struck me as an incoherent stance.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2011, 02:25 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
Hey king... I never got an answer on that starved child on the previous page... if his suffering was in God's plan.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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06-12-2011, 02:32 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2011 02:39 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 02:25 PM)ddrew Wrote:  Hey king... I never got an answer on that starved child on the previous page... if his suffering was in God's plan.

Huh?
(06-12-2011 11:15 AM)ddrew Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ....God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

So..... The picture below represents God's perfect plan....

[Image: starvation.jpg]

I dunno king... Your God is not doing a very good job. Somewhere he's got things all fucked up.

Oh missed this. Sorry.

Misfortune and evil are ever present in our depraved nature. Thinking back at all of my explanations, I never explained that God's choice of damnation isn't active; it's passive. He chooses the ones to save from damnation and leaves the others to their sinful nature.

The unfortunate side effect to humanity's sinful nature is, for example, this picture right here. Evil has permeated everything, and people suffer. It's a horrible, terrible, unfortunate set of events, but it is necessary for God's plan.

I guess the question is why does God allow atrocities like this to happen to innocent children? The simple answer is "I don't know." I cannot answer for God, and I won't pretend to. I only answer to God.

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06-12-2011, 03:01 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 02:32 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-12-2011 02:25 PM)ddrew Wrote:  Hey king... I never got an answer on that starved child on the previous page... if his suffering was in God's plan.

Huh?
(06-12-2011 11:15 AM)ddrew Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ....God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

So..... The picture below represents God's perfect plan....

[Image: starvation.jpg]

I dunno king... Your God is not doing a very good job. Somewhere he's got things all fucked up.

Oh missed this. Sorry.

Misfortune and evil are ever present in our depraved nature. Thinking back at all of my explanations, I never explained that God's choice of damnation isn't active; it's passive. He chooses the ones to save from damnation and leaves the others to their sinful nature.

The unfortunate side effect to humanity's sinful nature is, for example, this picture right here. Evil has permeated everything, and people suffer. It's a horrible, terrible, unfortunate set of events, but it is necessary for God's plan.

I guess the question is why does God allow atrocities like this to happen to innocent children? The simple answer is "I don't know." I cannot answer for God, and I won't pretend to. I only answer to God.

So we are all simply puppets on a string controlled by an omnipotent sadist!
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06-12-2011, 06:43 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 01:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't believe free will is taught in the Bible. I believe the Bible is steadfast in saying that God is in complete control.

So how do you explain atheists? Or atheists turned Christians / vice versa? (you having been one, I'd think you've thought long and hard on that one).

Better without God, and happier too.
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06-12-2011, 08:09 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(06-12-2011 01:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't believe free will is taught in the Bible. I believe the Bible is steadfast in saying that God is in complete control.

I'm not going to do any exegesis on these verses, I just present them as "free-will" sounding verses. Yes, I know the Bible doesn't say "FREE-WILL", but it also doesn't say, "Trinity" and I hope you're Trinitarian, nor does it say "Rapture", but then I would guess you might not believe in the Rapture as a Calvinist.

I'll have a few brief comments at the end, and I don't expect KC to answer each of these passages, I just wish to point out that it may not be as cut and dried as you hope, to defend the notion that free-will does not exist in the Bible.

(I'm hoping you accept the NASB as the best English Translation):

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and [u]adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”


Joshua 24:15-22
14 “Now, therefore, [g]fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and [h]truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the [i]River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of [j]bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.”
19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”

John 3:15-21
15 so that whoever [d]believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John 14:7-15
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments

John 15:4-8
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit [c]of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [d]prove to be My disciples.

Romans 2:5-16
5 But [d]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress [e]for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned [f]without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged [i]by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having [o]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I Corinthians 9:16-27
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. 17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under [h]the Law, as under [i]the Law though not being myself under [j]the Law, so that I might win those who are under [k]the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I [l]discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

I Timothy 6:6-14
6 But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. 7 For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. 8 If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all [g]sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
11 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, [h]perseverance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who [i]gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I John 5:1-15
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the [a]Christ is [b]born of God, and whoever loves the [c]Father loves the child [d]born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and [e]observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is [f]born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not [g]with the water only, but [h]with the water and [i]with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 [j]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are [k]in agreement. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence which we have [l]before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

Revelation 22:17-21
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and [i]from the holy city, which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with [j]all. Amen.


This is just an initial sampling. I'm sure I could come up with a lot more, but frankly, I'm having PTSD issues by doing this much.
It's probable that with 5 Point T.U.L.I.P. goggles, you will see these verses applying ONLY to the elect. But the gist of each passage is the responsibility for humans to choose what is right. To choose to come to God. To choose to do his commandments or choose not to. Choose to Believe or Choose to walk away.

I'm not trying to say the Bible teaches Free-will over Predestination, but it does teach a mystery that both can somehow be simultaneously true under the Sovereignty of God.

And now I go to sit balled up in a fetal position with the shower running and cry until the dirty Bible memories are washed away...

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06-12-2011, 08:32 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
Erxomai I'm starting to get the feeling you may have read the bible before? Also I am feeling like it's really time I went and bought one again so I can read it. I could have sworn free will was in the re somewhere, but then again I did attend sunday school and they kinda teach you whatever they want. I may have just spliced the messages they attempted to spread into actual reading memory. Considering where Erx came from, and how good kings is at spewing bible passages I have to assume I am fucking wrong. My disappointment is palpable. So is my fail. :'(

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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