Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
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02-12-2011, 07:03 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(02-12-2011 05:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am not talking about literature or sincerity. I agree that kingschosen seems sincere, and he is polite, but he is stating belief, not evidence. His identification of self and god is not an objective fact, but a subjective state or feeling.

Regardless of his sincerity, he is deluded by his internal beliefs that are unconnected to the external reality, therefore no evidence is forthcoming.

If KC had come in here with guns blazing telling all that we have to believe the way he does to have a good life, then sure, I want to see the evidence too. He hasn't done that, as far as I can see. Why pester him for "evidence" when this isn't a debate? I'd like to see your evidence for why there is no god. Sheesh! Why the heck should I believe anything you've said. You haven't given me one shred of evidence that God doesn't exist...nor am I asking you to. Nor am I asking KC to prove the opposite, because he hasn't asked me drink any Kool-aid. If he does, I'll ask him why I should. Until then, it's great to have civil and humorous conversations. It's lame to have someone whine that they can't see any evidence of something that doesn't exist. If you want to tear KC a new sphincter, why don't you give him your evidence for why God doesn't exist...only you might want to wait until he's invited the discussion.

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02-12-2011, 07:44 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(02-12-2011 07:03 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(02-12-2011 05:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am not talking about literature or sincerity. I agree that kingschosen seems sincere, and he is polite, but he is stating belief, not evidence. His identification of self and god is not an objective fact, but a subjective state or feeling.

Regardless of his sincerity, he is deluded by his internal beliefs that are unconnected to the external reality, therefore no evidence is forthcoming.

If KC had come in here with guns blazing telling all that we have to believe the way he does to have a good life, then sure, I want to see the evidence too. He hasn't done that, as far as I can see. Why pester him for "evidence" when this isn't a debate? I'd like to see your evidence for why there is no god. Sheesh! Why the heck should I believe anything you've said. You haven't given me one shred of evidence that God doesn't exist...nor am I asking you to. Nor am I asking KC to prove the opposite, because he hasn't asked me drink any Kool-aid. If he does, I'll ask him why I should. Until then, it's great to have civil and humorous conversations. It's lame to have someone whine that they can't see any evidence of something that doesn't exist. If you want to tear KC a new sphincter, why don't you give him your evidence for why God doesn't exist...only you might want to wait until he's invited the discussion.

Are my guns blazing? No, it will be very clear when my guns are blazing.

He invites the discussion by making unsupported statements and refusing to support them when asked. He invites the discussion by claiming he has evidence, but can't/won't use it here because it would be unacceptable in this forum. Had he said "I believe xyz" instead of "xyz is so because I say so", then he wouldn't be inviting this discussion.

I am not tearing him a new sphincter, merely calling him out on his statements.

I am not the one making the claims, it is not up to me to provide evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-12-2011, 08:01 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
Fair enough, Chas, but I don't think his responses here, anyway, have to do with evidence for the existence of God, but to explain his views on Calvinism. When we get to the, Why do you believe in God conversation, then I say we sink his battleship.
As it happens, Calvinism is a widely accepted doctrine that has been around for 3-400 years. It's adherents aren't interested in factual, materialistic evidence, as you and I are. It's true to them because they find evidence for Calvinism in their scriptures. If there's to be any debate, it's not in asking for evidence on why they believe in Calvinism because they'll give you chapter and verse for why they believe. But you (and I) will not accept this evidence because we believe faith is a bunch of hooey. KC understands this and thus he's not obligated to engage in a debate that he knows will be fruitless.
Don't mind me...I've just had decades of dealing with pushy folks who want to fight about beliefs. In the immortal words of Rodney King..."People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....They won the battle, but they haven't won the war....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out."

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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02-12-2011, 08:16 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(02-12-2011 08:01 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Fair enough, Chas, but I don't think his responses here, anyway, have to do with evidence for the existence of God, but to explain his views on Calvinism. When we get to the, Why do you believe in God conversation, then I say we sink his battleship.
As it happens, Calvinism is a widely accepted doctrine that has been around for 3-400 years. It's adherents aren't interested in factual, materialistic evidence, as you and I are. It's true to them because they find evidence for Calvinism in their scriptures. If there's to be any debate, it's not in asking for evidence on why they believe in Calvinism because they'll give you chapter and verse for why they believe. But you (and I) will not accept this evidence because we believe faith is a bunch of hooey. KC understands this and thus he's not obligated to engage in a debate that he knows will be fruitless.
Don't mind me...I've just had decades of dealing with pushy folks who want to fight about beliefs. In the immortal words of Rodney King..."People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....They won the battle, but they haven't won the war....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out."

I didn't make this about the existence of god - this was about evidence for his statements.
Here are my posts on this thread:
Quote:Even if you could prove this god exists, I would not serve, worship, or bow down to such an insane being.

And just how do you know you're among the elect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you don't know that you're among the elect, you believe without evidence that you are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then whatever you think you've got, it's not evidence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not talking about literature or sincerity. I agree that kingschosen seems sincere, and he is polite, but he is stating belief, not evidence. His identification of self and god is not an objective fact, but a subjective state or feeling.

Regardless of his sincerity, he is deluded by his internal beliefs that are unconnected to the external reality, therefore no evidence is forthcoming.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not trying to convince you of my beliefs, except to point out that you have provided no evidence, just your internally generated beliefs.

I am fascinated by your beliefs, and why you believe them, but you always stop with "it's what I believe due to my mystical experience, so it's true".
Just asking for evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-12-2011, 08:42 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(29-11-2011 05:19 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I don't know to what degree much of this stuff is preached today, and maybe worse, in our main stream Churches. Probably not too much.......... as a non theist I like to make myself aware of just where the origins of these alleged moral arbiters really lie.

Calvinism is alive and well. My ex girlfriend and her husband, both trained a seminary schools in the South, broke away from Southern Baptist leanings and became willing Calvinists. They spoke about it at length with me, especially the concept of Predestination which they joyfully embrace since they believe they are among such an elite group.

It makes me sick to listen to it, and question their mental faculties a bit. It makes no sense at all, and just sounds like the juvenile desire to be included at the cool kids table. Why anyone would follow such a sick bastard as Jean Calvin is beyond me.
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02-12-2011, 08:43 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(02-12-2011 08:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-12-2011 08:01 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Fair enough, Chas, but I don't think his responses here, anyway, have to do with evidence for the existence of God, but to explain his views on Calvinism. When we get to the, Why do you believe in God conversation, then I say we sink his battleship.
As it happens, Calvinism is a widely accepted doctrine that has been around for 3-400 years. It's adherents aren't interested in factual, materialistic evidence, as you and I are. It's true to them because they find evidence for Calvinism in their scriptures. If there's to be any debate, it's not in asking for evidence on why they believe in Calvinism because they'll give you chapter and verse for why they believe. But you (and I) will not accept this evidence because we believe faith is a bunch of hooey. KC understands this and thus he's not obligated to engage in a debate that he knows will be fruitless.
Don't mind me...I've just had decades of dealing with pushy folks who want to fight about beliefs. In the immortal words of Rodney King..."People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....They won the battle, but they haven't won the war....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out."

I didn't make this about the existence of god - this was about evidence for his statements.
Here are my posts on this thread:
Quote:Even if you could prove this god exists, I would not serve, worship, or bow down to such an insane being.

And just how do you know you're among the elect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you don't know that you're among the elect, you believe without evidence that you are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then whatever you think you've got, it's not evidence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not talking about literature or sincerity. I agree that kingschosen seems sincere, and he is polite, but he is stating belief, not evidence. His identification of self and god is not an objective fact, but a subjective state or feeling.

Regardless of his sincerity, he is deluded by his internal beliefs that are unconnected to the external reality, therefore no evidence is forthcoming.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not trying to convince you of my beliefs, except to point out that you have provided no evidence, just your internally generated beliefs.

I am fascinated by your beliefs, and why you believe them, but you always stop with "it's what I believe due to my mystical experience, so it's true".
Just asking for evidence.

I get that.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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02-12-2011, 09:57 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(02-12-2011 04:48 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-12-2011 04:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-12-2011 04:37 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
Quote:Even if you could prove this god exists, I would not serve, worship, or bow down to such an insane being.

And just how do you know you're among the elect?

I had a radical conversation.

So you don't know that you're among the elect, you believe without evidence that you are.

Evidence? I have plenty.

However, my evidence can't be used in the TTA courthouse.

I have some suspicion that you may be a Satanist of sorts purporting to be a really weird Christian.

God as depicted by you comes across as some sort of evil megalomaniac, intent for some obscure reason ,in glorifying his son; to Hell with the majority of other living creatures. You pluck pieces from the O.T. and N.T. simply to justify your strange position while conveniently ignoring scripture that arguably rejects your Calvinistic views. This eclectic approach, while very common within the feuding factions of Christendom, serves no useful purpose.

As for suffering in humanity and animals of the non elect, this is simply god's capricious whim in order to glorify the son, and you to a lesser degree because like Paul you had an epiphany of sorts. There is no compassion whatsoever in a God you seemingly turn into Satan.

If I was a christian person I would see your brand of theology as very black, insanely self promoting, and an affront to all religious people who endeavour to find some truth and sane value in the limited parts of scripture that may be seen as justifying such.

Very limited parts of your writings show signs of an enquiring mind.
Unfortunately blatant equivocations and lack of consistent rational interconnections
detract from my former contention.

If my Satanist notions are ill concieved, I apologize in advance.
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03-12-2011, 12:32 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
I just got back from a movie and opened up this train wreck. I'll address what ever questions were asked or statements made sometime tomorrow when I'm not about to fall asleep.

Oh, and real mature, Chas.

Real mature.

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03-12-2011, 01:53 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
I'm going through the book of revelation with my Mum (Christian) at the moment. It's kinda nasty 'cos I can't read it without laughing. There's liters of blood flowing on every page and frikken harlots wandering around outside the walls of Babylon and angels buzzing around blowing trumpets and shouting woe woe woe and thirds of the world's population perishing in floods/fires/earthquakes for getting 666 tattoos... not to mention getting cast into bottomless pits.

For any Christian, I imagine this sort of thing causes anguish. So when nice Mr Calvin comes and (a) cuts of your neighbour's head for disagreeing with him, (b) resolves all the cognitive dissonance caused by the actual complete craziness contained in the Bible with a lot of clever talk about predestination and so on... It makes a self-consistent sort of sense. No need to accuse people of Satanism - KCs an intelligent guy, and he's standing up to defend a belief system. More power to his elbow say I.

However, we're allowed to attack it. It's just a belief system. And evidence... I'm having trouble accepting that there's evidence that won't work in a TTA court... at least let us see it? 'Cos even if we can't accept it, saying "I got it but I'm not gonna show it to you 'cos you'll laugh/won't accept it/ whatever"... well, imagine if science was done that way? "I'm not gonna show you my evidence that matter is made of atoms because you'll laugh at me"??? Refusing to show your evidence - *That's* what gets laughed at - that would be an unknown and unremembered, and unlamented crank, if this was science we were doing.

PS: KC, don't think anyone's trying to convert you... and of course you're free to believe whatever you like... Just... um... if you're gonna stand up and say "Calvin's right and I like him"... be prepared to take a bit of flak?
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03-12-2011, 07:31 AM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(03-12-2011 12:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I just got back from a movie and opened up this train wreck. I'll address what ever questions were asked or statements made sometime tomorrow when I'm not about to fall asleep.

Oh, and real mature, Chas.

Real mature.

My power is awesome and to be worshipped - I have offended the unoffendable!

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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