Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
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05-12-2011, 02:42 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2011 02:46 PM by morondog.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 02:29 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  But yeah, I'm aware the subjective evidence doesn't equal objective evidence and I pointed this out extensively. This is why I said my evidence wouldn't hold up in the TTA Courthouse.

But now you've given us your reasons. Subjective evidence is still evidence, and to ignore it is not necessarily good, to my way of thinking - after all, for all of us, at the final call, evidence is subjective - we turn it into something we think of as objective, external to ourselves, by using the scientific method... Argh that doesn't sound very clear... oh well.

Quote:This is called conditional free will... or middle knowledge. Some people who claim predestination abide by this, but it is a flawed belief. If you claim God is omniscience, then this belief cannot be. At it's core, it's still God basing his decision on a human factor. It's just convoluted, so it doesn't seem that way. God does not base His choice of salvation on anything that a human can do.
So um... what is a more correct view of predestination if this is wrong? 'Cos you do believe God is omniscient right? Or not?

Quote:
Quote:God still chooses not to save said losers but rather only chooses a select few who get caviar and cigarettes while they enjoy eternity watching everyone else gettin' toasted.

Your premise is correct.

Quote:I must say this is starting to look like reductio as absurdum proof that God != good? Which therefore would either imply that God != good or that there is a problem with one of our other assumptions?

Yes. It's the belief that's God will is absolute, and that whatever He chooses cannot be questioned.

Eeek! Seriously? It does seem a rather bleak worldview? Oh well, I'll wave at you when I'm getting grilled Wink
(05-12-2011 02:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  So um... what is a more correct view of predestination if this is wrong? 'Cos you do believe God is omniscient right? Or not?

Argh, sorry I forgot we're not supposed to be making this about your personal beliefs... sorry about that... please feel free to ignore the question, or answer it if you feel inclined Smile
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05-12-2011, 02:57 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2011 03:00 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
@Mr. Woof
Why is that? Is my personal belief in God really a determining factor on whether or not you would like me? If so, that's kind of shallow and close minded, don't you think? It's not like I'm pushing my belief on you. I'm actually a pretty likeable guy IRL.

@morondog
I believe in an all powerful God. Also, there is a misconception that I believe God = good. I believe God = sovereign. Through our human perspective, the will of God may seem unfair or bleak; however, according to what I believe, His will is perfect. Our fallen nature gives us a cloudy perspective on the "fairness" of God. The acceptance that God is all powerful is the acceptance that God is sovereign and He can do no wrong. Whatever is "wrong" in our eyes is "right" in God's and serves His ultimate will.
Also, my view of predestination is that God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

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05-12-2011, 03:21 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  @Mr. Woof
Why is that? Is my personal belief in God really a determining factor on whether or not you would like me? If so, that's kind of shallow and close minded, don't you think? It's not like I'm pushing my belief on you. I'm actually a pretty likeable guy IRL.

@morondog
I believe in an all powerful God. Also, there is a misconception that I believe God = good. I believe God = sovereign. Through our human perspective, the will of God may seem unfair or bleak; however, according to what I believe, His will is perfect. Our fallen nature gives us a cloudy perspective on the "fairness" of God. The acceptance that God is all powerful is the acceptance that God is sovereign and He can do no wrong. Whatever is "wrong" in our eyes is "right" in God's and serves His ultimate will.
Also, my view of predestination is that God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

If its shallow not to want to befriend people who revere a satanic, luntatic type "god", then yes I'm shallow. I am no lover of sovereinty...secular or heavenly
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05-12-2011, 03:22 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 03:21 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  @Mr. Woof
Why is that? Is my personal belief in God really a determining factor on whether or not you would like me? If so, that's kind of shallow and close minded, don't you think? It's not like I'm pushing my belief on you. I'm actually a pretty likeable guy IRL.

@morondog
I believe in an all powerful God. Also, there is a misconception that I believe God = good. I believe God = sovereign. Through our human perspective, the will of God may seem unfair or bleak; however, according to what I believe, His will is perfect. Our fallen nature gives us a cloudy perspective on the "fairness" of God. The acceptance that God is all powerful is the acceptance that God is sovereign and He can do no wrong. Whatever is "wrong" in our eyes is "right" in God's and serves His ultimate will.
Also, my view of predestination is that God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

If its shallow not to want to befriend people who revere a satanic, luntatic type "god", then yes I'm shallow. I am no lover of sovereinty...secular or heavenly

Fair enough.

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05-12-2011, 05:19 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 02:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  Subjective evidence is still evidence,...

No, that was my point. Feelings are not evidence; evidence is objective by definition.

You may call it evidence, but that just confuses the discussion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-12-2011, 05:23 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, my view of predestination is that God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

So what's the point of prayer again?

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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05-12-2011, 05:27 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 05:23 PM)ddrew Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, my view of predestination is that God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

So what's the point of prayer again?

I wrote this to Paul in the other thread.

Prayer is essential because it is communication with God. Most people see prayer as “Oh hai god! Heal plz. Can I have this?” Prayer, in essence, isn’t this at all. Yes, our fates our determined, but this line of communication helps us understand God. It allows Him to answer questions. He can reveal to us the “whys”. Prayer is for us. It’s not for God.

We are to pray for others in obedience. Praying for others also allows God to reveal to us how He wants us to be used, what to say, and how to act around others. Ultimately, none of that is our choice; however, prayer is use as an explanation for His purpose and a look into His will.

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05-12-2011, 05:33 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 05:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 05:23 PM)ddrew Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, my view of predestination is that God has planned everything out from the beginning and there is nothing that can affect this.

So what's the point of prayer again?

I wrote this to Paul in the other thread.

Prayer is essential because it is communication with God. Most people see prayer as “Oh hai god! Heal plz. Can I have this?” Prayer, in essence, isn’t this at all. Yes, our fates our determined, but this line of communication helps us understand God. It allows Him to answer questions. He can reveal to us the “whys”. Prayer is for us. It’s not for God.

We are to pray for others in obedience. Praying for others also allows God to reveal to us how He wants us to be used, what to say, and how to act around others. Ultimately, none of that is our choice; however, prayer is use as an explanation for His purpose and a look into His will.

Ya know I've tried that prayer stuff.. In the end I felt like a fool for talking to myself. I did give it an honest try tho. But no questions were ever answered. "Whys" were never revealed. I prayed for the world. Prayed for others. God never revealed to me how he wanted to use me. No reflection on what to say or how to act around others. Nothing. If anything came from it. It was the affirmation that there is no God. That God doesn't exist at all.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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05-12-2011, 05:35 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 05:33 PM)ddrew Wrote:  Ya know I've tried that prayer stuff.. In the end I felt like a fool for talking to myself. I did give it an honest try tho. But no questions were ever answered. "Whys" were never revealed. I prayed for the world. Prayed for others. God never revealed to me how he wanted to use me. No reflection on what to say or how to act around others. Nothing. If anything came from it. It was the affirmation that there is no God. That God doesn't exist at all.

It's probably because you're not among the elect. Sorry.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-12-2011, 05:37 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 05:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 05:33 PM)ddrew Wrote:  Ya know I've tried that prayer stuff.. In the end I felt like a fool for talking to myself. I did give it an honest try tho. But no questions were ever answered. "Whys" were never revealed. I prayed for the world. Prayed for others. God never revealed to me how he wanted to use me. No reflection on what to say or how to act around others. Nothing. If anything came from it. It was the affirmation that there is no God. That God doesn't exist at all.

It's probably because you're not among the elect. Sorry.

Damnit...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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