Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
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05-12-2011, 06:44 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 05:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 05:33 PM)ddrew Wrote:  Ya know I've tried that prayer stuff.. In the end I felt like a fool for talking to myself. I did give it an honest try tho. But no questions were ever answered. "Whys" were never revealed. I prayed for the world. Prayed for others. God never revealed to me how he wanted to use me. No reflection on what to say or how to act around others. Nothing. If anything came from it. It was the affirmation that there is no God. That God doesn't exist at all.

It's probably because you're not among the elect. Sorry.

Or, that your regeneration hasn't happened.

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05-12-2011, 08:47 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 06:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Or, that your regeneration hasn't happened.

That's a proper churched up answer to give, but what of the Sinner's Prayer? Why should God hear the prayer of the sinner coming to Christ since they're not regenerated yet?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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05-12-2011, 08:59 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 08:47 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 06:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Or, that your regeneration hasn't happened.

That's a proper churched up answer to give, but what of the Sinner's Prayer? Why should God hear the prayer of the sinner coming to Christ since they're not regenerated yet?

Romans 10:9-10?

This follows the regeneration. God regenerates then the sinner confesses.

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05-12-2011, 09:11 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 08:59 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Romans 10:9-10?

This follows the regeneration. God regenerates then the sinner confesses.

If I understand your response, the salvation scenario starts with a sinner being regenerated even before they make a decision to ask God to save them? Doesn't God need to speak and be heard before you can call on the Lord and be saved (Rom 10:13)? Does not his speaking and hearing happen through prayer (to roughly paraphrase a previous answer you gave)?

Are you a strict TULIP Calvinist? Do you not think the sinner has any role in turning to Jesus?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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05-12-2011, 10:06 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 09:11 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 08:59 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Romans 10:9-10?

This follows the regeneration. God regenerates then the sinner confesses.

If I understand your response, the salvation scenario starts with a sinner being regenerated even before they make a decision to ask God to save them? Doesn't God need to speak and be heard before you can call on the Lord and be saved (Rom 10:13)? Does not his speaking and hearing happen through prayer (to roughly paraphrase a previous answer you gave)?

Are you a strict TULIP Calvinist? Do you not think the sinner has any role in turning to Jesus?

I do not think that the sinner has any role in salvation or turning to Christ. The acknowledgement of sins and realization of Christ's salvation can only happen after the regeneration.

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05-12-2011, 10:26 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 10:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I do not think that the sinner has any role in salvation or turning to Christ. The acknowledgement of sins and realization of Christ's salvation can only happen after the regeneration.

Where does someone like me fit into your thinking? I was born again at the age of 6 with many a rededication of my life to Christ and with many a confession with my mouth and a belief in my heart that Jesus was Lord. I spent 40+ years as a True Believer. A Bible-Believing Christian and a defender of the faith. Now I have chosen to identify myself (at least here) as an atheist. Obviously you don't know me now or then, but I can confidently say if I wasn't a true Christian, then no one is.
Does this mean I was never part of the regenerated elect?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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05-12-2011, 10:49 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2011 11:18 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 10:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I do not think that the sinner has any role in salvation or turning to Christ.

Damn dude, I'm having problems discerning any practical difference between this and nihilism. I mean they both require some external stimulus to even get your ass out of bed in the morning to do anything. They both believe in a final outcome, one just prefers the far more likely outcome of fade to black and the other prefers a highly improbable, currently inexplicable and untenable grand reunion in the sky. No wonder I find you likeable, only thing we disagree on is where we're going and how we get there. I got a beeline for the abyss and you want to go off-road 'cause you heard about a cabin or a lodge or a settlement or whatnot. But I'm telling you that all roads lead to Lake Void, and the sooner we get there the better. HoC's already pitched camp there on the shore just waiting for us. If we go off-road we may get lost in the woods and die out there without ever experiencing the abyss.

(05-12-2011 10:26 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Where does someone like me fit into your thinking? I was born again at the age of 6 with many a rededication of my life to Christ and with many a confession with my mouth and a belief in my heart that Jesus was Lord.

I felt this as a young boy and throughout puberty, but my thinking changed when I became rational.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." - 1 Corinthians 13:11 (KJV)


(05-12-2011 10:26 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Does this mean I was never part of the regenerated elect?

It means you and I are the most damned of all. We have committed the unforgivable sin. We were elected but refused to serve. We swallowed the Holy Spirit only to regurgitate it later. (You apparently were able to stomach it quite a bit longer than me.) ... I ain't scared.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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05-12-2011, 11:03 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2011 11:14 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 10:26 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 10:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I do not think that the sinner has any role in salvation or turning to Christ. The acknowledgement of sins and realization of Christ's salvation can only happen after the regeneration.

Where does someone like me fit into your thinking? I was born again at the age of 6 with many a rededication of my life to Christ and with many a confession with my mouth and a belief in my heart that Jesus was Lord. I spent 40+ years as a True Believer. A Bible-Believing Christian and a defender of the faith. Now I have chosen to identify myself (at least here) as an atheist. Obviously you don't know me now or then, but I can confidently say if I wasn't a true Christian, then no one is.
Does this mean I was never part of the regenerated elect?

Since you asked me, I'm going to answer honestly as to what I think. Please don't be offended because I can't never, ever be able to tell you what you think or how you feel. Again, my assessment is based on what you told me and what I know about God.

In all frankness, you were never elect. Your social stimuli created and molded your beliefs. You never truly believed because if you did then you would not be atheist. No one can escape God if they are chosen; that would deprived God of His omnipotence.
(05-12-2011 10:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Damn dude, I'm having problems discerning any practical difference between this and nihilism. I mean they both require some external stimulus to even get your ass out of bed in the morning to do anything. They both believe in a final outcome, one just prefers the far more likely outcome of fade to black and the other prefers a highly improbable, currently inexplicable and untenable grand reunion in the sky. No wonder I find you likeable, only thing we disagree on is where we're going and how we get there. I got a beeline for the abyss and you want to go off-road 'cause you heard about a cabin or a lodge or a settlement or whatnot. But I'm telling you that all roads lead to Lake Void, and the sooner we get there the better. HoC's already pitched camp there on the shore just waiting for us. If we go off-road we may get lost in the woods and die out there without ever experiencing the abyss.

Well, if you're out my way stop by for fish and horse.

In all seriousness, though, I do see the similarities.

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05-12-2011, 11:36 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2011 11:52 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 11:03 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 10:26 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Where does someone like me fit into your thinking? I was born again at the age of 6 with many a rededication of my life to Christ and with many a confession with my mouth and a belief in my heart that Jesus was Lord. I spent 40+ years as a True Believer. A Bible-Believing Christian and a defender of the faith.

In all frankness, you were never elect.

Erxomai and I ain'tjust gonna roll over for your "No True Christian" bullshit. The Holy Spiirt not only embodied us, it fulfilled us, and we rejected it for the fairy tale it is. The Holy Spirit would never have entered us if we were not elect. ... Hope God's got a standby list.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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05-12-2011, 11:36 PM
RE: Calvin's Bizarre Doctrine.
(05-12-2011 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 02:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  Subjective evidence is still evidence,...

No, that was my point. Feelings are not evidence; evidence is objective by definition.

You may call it evidence, but that just confuses the discussion.

Words are such tricky bastards... Half of the arguments on teh internets are probably traceable to people implicitly using different definitions...

But fair comment. I've never seen "subjective evidence" used as a technical term except in my head Tongue

@KingsChosen: Gee... you're such a rational guy yet you feel comfortable with this God who's not good, even by human standards. I mean, I guess it's nice being elected and all... I'd really struggle with it myself though. Each to his own I guess.
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