RE: Calvinism Debunked
(09-10-2012 09:57 PM)Chas Wrote:
(09-10-2012 09:38 PM)kingschosen Wrote: Refuting the Chuck smith video:
Chucky starts off with Romans 8:29
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
He then states that the verse doesn't apply to being predestined for salvation; instead, we are predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ. He asserts that this is separate from salvation, but does not explain it.
So, what is it then? What is it to be conformed in Christ? Chucky never tells us.
Let's break down the verse:
For those whom He foreknew - Greek word for "foreknow" here. This literally means to know before anything.
He also predestined - Greek word for "predestined" here. It literally means to actively choose and preordain beforehand
to become conformed to the image of His Son,
So this is the Greek word for "conformed"... which doesn't do us much good because it literally means conformed.
So, what does conformed mean? This.
We'll go with definition 1 since that what it is in context:
to be similar or identical; also : to be in agreement or harmony
And the Greek for "image" is this, which means something that is very close in resemblance.
So yeah, the verse says that we are predestined to become almost like Christ.
So, what are Christ's characteristics that He is supposed to impute to us? Obviously, it's not become God aka the "Three O's". That was never mentioned or hinted at in the Bible. According to scripture Christ is supposed to impute His righteousness to us so that we can become sinless and be worthy of heaven.
So, to be conformed is to be sinless and worthy of heaven.
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren - Paul is conveying the well known story of Jacob and Esau here. Jacob was "chosen" just like the predestined are chosen by no condition of their own. Paul addresses this very thing in the very next chapter of his letter to the Romans. Romans 9 is all about how God chooses people with no conditions other than His own.
Okay, so in plain English... according to the Greek... what does this verse say?
For those whom He knew before anything, He actively and purposefully chose and preordained them to be sinless and blameless so that they can be worthy of heaven, so that those that are conformed to be like Christ will like the Jacob, as he was chosen by no condition of his own to be God's choice amongst the many others.
Okay, KC... that's pretty convincing, but I think you're just playing the semantics game. Right?
Ho, ho, ho, there little Padewan grasshopper. I wasn't finished.
Chucky also forgot to mention blatant verses that say that God chooses for salvation.
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
God chose us before there was a "before" that we would be blameless before Him. He predestined us to adoption (salvation) through the imputed righteousness of Christ. This was all done through His kindness and His grace which He freely gives to His BELOVED(the one God loves).
Still a little "semantic-y", KC...
2 Thess 2:13
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Those that are loved by God need to give thanks because God chose you from the beginning for salvation (literally - deliverance, salvation) by being sanctified by the Holy Spirit and faith in Christ.
Okay... moving on.
Next, the Peanut Gallery guys encourages the woman to not argue with a Calvinist. lolwut? Why? Because an Arminian, if they follow scripture, cannot refute a Calvinist. Even the most basic Calvinist can easy dismantle the Arminian teachings.
So, his advice is to not bother with it and take the "high road".
Then he takes a low road and calls Calvinists "cultist". Like I said before, he just called some of the most well respected, well learned, and well known theologians "cultists". I'm not going to list the sheer volume of famous theologians that are reformed because it would take me forever.
Bucky can vouch for me on this - most seminary professors are reformed as well.
He then says that Calvinist only argue around a certain number of verses... which is silly. Calvinist use the entire OT, the teachings of Paul, the teachings of John, and the teachings of Jesus to systematically destroy Arminian teachings.
Peanut Gallery then addresses Limited Atonement... which I don't think he even grasps. Limited Atonement is this: Christ's imputed righteousness or atonement for our sins is sufficient for all but only applied to the elect.
He also says that it's against teachings in the Bible but doesn't say where... which I want to know because the only thing I've seen in the Bible is that Christ's sacrifice is for the "believing ones" and "every type of man" (not just Jews or royalty).
He then says that Calvinist are false teachers by quoting a non-sequitur verse out of Peter. He then embarrasses himself with his misinterpretation of 2 Peter 2:1. He clearly doesn't know his Greek as he tries to assert that "bought" means that Christ "purchased" them with His blood but they deny this gift.
When the Greek clearly states that it has nothing to do with salvation but that the person is a possession of God. It has nothing to do with redemption, it just means that God possesses all that that person does... everything... even down to denial.
Then he says, "herp derp Calvinist say that's a hard verse, let's not talk about it".
No we don't. It's not hard. Learn some Greek.
"But I like to stick with the Bible... and... and not with the theories of these guys."
Yeah, okay. Doing a fine job of stickin' wit it so far.
Chucky... wait... is that Chuck... which one is Chuck? Who cares? This guy is Chuck.
Anyway, Chuck then bastardized 1 Timothy 2:4. He says "all" = all, everything, everyone, in the whole world.
That's not what the verse says. All means "every kind of" which leads into the word "man". Look at the verses before this one. He addresses "all men" and then clarifies that it also includes kings and those in authority and then uses the EXACT SAME PHRASES again. He is saying that salvation isn't just for one type of man. It is for all types of men. This was a common battle of the time... Jews vs Gentiles, rich vs. poor. It is not an all inclusive, everyone in the whole world "all". Learn some Greek.
Also... they previously said that Calvinist like to cling to certain verses... this verse is an Arminian favorite. Pot and kettle here.
Okay, more Greek stuff... He starts on John 5:40.
First, let's look at John 5:30
30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Pretty much says that Jesus can't do anything on His own and it subjected to God's will.
But yeah, verse 40:
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
"Unwilling" does not mean what he says it means... as in they have a choice.
Unwilling means "not you are willing. In plain English, this Greek means that "you do not desire". The connotation that he places on this word IS NOT what is said in the Greek.
It wasn't that they were "unwilling" in the sense that they chose to not choose God, it was the fact that they did not desire God.
Jesus further elaborates on this in John 8:47:
47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.
Jesus said those that aren't of God cannot hear God. So, those that do not desire God aren't of God.
They try to say the same thing for Matthew 23:37, but the exact same Greek is used in the exact same way as John 5:40.
And, then we move into John 7:17. Again, showing their ignorance of the language. The verse straight up says desires and not the "willing" that he is trying to push into this verse. In plain English, the verse says "If anyone desires to do God's will, he will know that the teachings come from God."
"Calvinism is Christianity without Jesus."
What a load of BS. Calvinism very much recognizes the purpose of Christ; however, in Calvinism, Christ isn't the sole focal point. God's plan is. Yes, Christ is important, but there is much more to God than just the Son. Yes, it is because of the Son that we have salvation, but it is because of God's plan that we have the Son.
Calvinism is a much deeper, richer form of Christianity than the superficial, feel-good, ignore the hard parts of scripture that Arminians teach.
Arminians frustrate me more than any group of people I know. More than YECs even... yes... I went there.
OK, but that basically comes down to how many angels dancing on the head of the pin?
I tried to warn y'all.