Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
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05-01-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
(05-01-2015 12:52 AM)The Drake Wrote:  So you pretty much summed up my point of view. Shit happens. Both good and bad. So I want to know, does the good I do mean nothing to a theist ? While the jackwad child molester who has "found" Jebus gets a free pass ?
Non belief is the ultimate crime.

God - Why didn't you believe in me?

You - Because I didn't know you existed. Why didn't you let me know that you existed?

God - Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed.

You - Without any evidence how am I to decide between YHWH, Allah, Zeus, Tane, Ra, Odin, Vishnu...

God - I am the one true god, you are not to worship false gods!

You - You haven't answered my question. Without any evidence how am I to decide which god to worship?

God - I sent myself as my son to Earth to be killed to atone for the sins you were going to offend me with.

You - But I didn't witness any of this. There is no evidence that any of this happened.

God - There is the Bible.

You - There is no evidence to suggest the bible is true. It was written many decades and centuries after the alleged events. Allah has the Koran, Vishnu has the Vedas, Zeus's story was passed down by word of mouth.

God - How dare you, you will burn for eternity.

You - How dare I what? What have I done?

God - You have not believed.

You - Well, now that I am talking to you, I believe you exist now.

God - It's too late, You see me, which means you know I exist. Knowing is different from believing.

You - Well all the believers no longer believe, they know now too.

God - Yeah but... You had to believe at the point that you died.

You - Why is that important?

God - Do not dare to question me?

You - WTF!
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05-01-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
(05-01-2015 12:52 AM)The Drake Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 09:00 AM)mordant Wrote:  Unfortunately, the reality is that the connection between efforts and outcomes in life are flaky at best. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Your statements are only true in an overall sense, and not even "overall" in the context of one human life. Good tends to beget good, in whatever passes for the great scheme of things, but this is cold comfort to a good person who is dying of some painful disease and has the prospect of leaving their family bereft of their support and guidance -- for example. I suspect it was cold comfort to the orphans of a good friend of mine, who died along with his wife in a head-on collision with a drunk driver. And so on.

The purpose of heaven and hell is indeed a "glorified carrot and stick" but it is more than that. It is a deferment of justice and closure that we don't get in this life -- displaced to a conveniently invisible and unaccessible / unverifiable "after" life. It is a mechanism to get people to buy the idea that god has their back and will reward the just and punish the wicked ... someday, pie-in-the-sky, by-and-by.

So you pretty much summed up my point of view. Shit happens. Both good and bad. So I want to know, does the good I do mean nothing to a theist ? While the jackwad child molester who has "found" Jebus gets a free pass ?

Yep, and don't forget that god is "just". Laughat

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-01-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
Saved from what? The torture that a complete psychopath thought up because he supposedly gives you free will then condemns you for using it?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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05-01-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
(05-01-2015 12:52 AM)The Drake Wrote:  So you pretty much summed up my point of view. Shit happens. Both good and bad. So I want to know, does the good I do mean nothing to a theist ? While the jackwad child molester who has "found" Jebus gets a free pass ?
As a former evangelical, I can unequivocally answer "no, the good you do means nothing to a theist" -- or at least to a conservative, fundamentalist, literalist, inerrantist theist. Liberal theists will cut you some slack.

In order to otherize you, a fundamentalist has to disacknowledge your good deeds. This usually comes via the verse in Isaiah that talks about "all our righteousness are as filthy rags". "There is NONE righteous, no, not one." What I never stopped to think about was that this effectively elevates belief over deeds. Unlike my late wife, who was fond of saying "pay attention to what they do, not what they say", most theists pay attention to what people say ... or at least what they claim to believe. It is important to ritualistically align yourself with god's supposedly superior and solely authoritative and allegedly objective morality. Aligning yourself with mere human morality exposes you to charges of relativism and/or legalism. Relativism is a problem for an evangelical because it removes moral certainty and introduces moral ambiguity, which causes their heads to explode. Legalism is a problem because it runs counter to "grace", the notion that god forgives us even though we don't deserve to be forgiven. Evangelicals are ever obsessed with reminding themselves, each other, and anyone dumb enough to listen that they are unworthy worms, fit only for the fires of hell, but -- hallelujah! -- god has forgiven them anyway. The very definition of grace ("unmerited favor") underscores this. You're a worthless piece of shit, but god will accept you anyway, and magically wash the turd that you are.
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16-01-2015, 05:03 PM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
(05-01-2015 02:52 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(05-01-2015 12:52 AM)The Drake Wrote:  So you pretty much summed up my point of view. Shit happens. Both good and bad. So I want to know, does the good I do mean nothing to a theist ? While the jackwad child molester who has "found" Jebus gets a free pass ?
As a former evangelical, I can unequivocally answer "no, the good you do means nothing to a theist" -- or at least to a conservative, fundamentalist, literalist, inerrantist theist. Liberal theists will cut you some slack.

In order to otherize you, a fundamentalist has to disacknowledge your good deeds. This usually comes via the verse in Isaiah that talks about "all our righteousness are as filthy rags". "There is NONE righteous, no, not one." What I never stopped to think about was that this effectively elevates belief over deeds. Unlike my late wife, who was fond of saying "pay attention to what they do, not what they say", most theists pay attention to what people say ... or at least what they claim to believe. It is important to ritualistically align yourself with god's supposedly superior and solely authoritative and allegedly objective morality. Aligning yourself with mere human morality exposes you to charges of relativism and/or legalism. Relativism is a problem for an evangelical because it removes moral certainty and introduces moral ambiguity, which causes their heads to explode. Legalism is a problem because it runs counter to "grace", the notion that god forgives us even though we don't deserve to be forgiven. Evangelicals are ever obsessed with reminding themselves, each other, and anyone dumb enough to listen that they are unworthy worms, fit only for the fires of hell, but -- hallelujah! -- god has forgiven them anyway. The very definition of grace ("unmerited favor") underscores this. You're a worthless piece of shit, but god will accept you anyway, and magically wash the turd that you are.

While I understand the moral implications of taking pride in one's deeds, I believe it is the intent of your actions that should define your character. Selfless actions on ones behalf, for the betterment of the whole, should be praised.

The second mouse gets the cheese.
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16-01-2015, 05:17 PM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
(03-01-2015 03:56 PM)The Drake Wrote:  What is "salvation" ? Can I be a complete asshole and still go to heaven ? Can I be the nicest person you know and still go to hell ? Are Buddhists allowed in "Eternity" ? Hindu ? Muslim ? Atheist ? Or is it a Jesus only club ?

The Ego is the Self unrestrained. Self Control is control of the Self. Selfish, is self centered. Selfless, is without self as a consideration. Salvation is a gift given to those who overcome the self. Overcoming is the gift that produces our nature. Nature is the characteristic of a creation. Become a new creature.

You are what you desire. With your thoughts you make the world.

Galatians 5

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

The Son is the Supreme Self of all things, the image of God's Spirit. This is given to make more life. All things are the Son. Yahweh is the Ego of the Son that Jesus overcome to become Christ. Satan is the accuser, or conscience of Adam (Son of God). We are all Adam (Version of the Son). To overcome Yahweh / Satan, overcome the need for law. Love others. Once you do, you have met your self. Live long and prosper.



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17-01-2015, 01:09 AM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
(16-01-2015 05:17 PM)AlephBet Wrote:  
(03-01-2015 03:56 PM)The Drake Wrote:  What is "salvation" ? Can I be a complete asshole and still go to heaven ? Can I be the nicest person you know and still go to hell ? Are Buddhists allowed in "Eternity" ? Hindu ? Muslim ? Atheist ? Or is it a Jesus only club ?

The Ego is the Self unrestrained. Self Control is control of the Self. Selfish, is self centered. Selfless, is without self as a consideration. Salvation is a gift given to those who overcome the self. Overcoming is the gift that produces our nature. Nature is the characteristic of a creation. Become a new creature.

You are what you desire. With your thoughts you make the world.

Galatians 5

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

The Son is the Supreme Self of all things, the image of God's Spirit. This is given to make more life. All things are the Son. Yahweh is the Ego of the Son that Jesus overcome to become Christ. Satan is the accuser, or conscience of Adam (Son of God). We are all Adam (Version of the Son). To overcome Yahweh / Satan, overcome the need for law. Love others. Once you do, you have met your self. Live long and prosper.




Ummm...OK...So life is what we make it. Selflessness is noteworthy...bragging about it is smug. Be excellent to each other. Duuuuude.

The second mouse gets the cheese.
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17-01-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
(17-01-2015 01:09 AM)The Drake Wrote:  
(16-01-2015 05:17 PM)AlephBet Wrote:  The Ego is the Self unrestrained. Self Control is control of the Self. Selfish, is self centered. Selfless, is without self as a consideration. Salvation is a gift given to those who overcome the self. Overcoming is the gift that produces our nature. Nature is the characteristic of a creation. Become a new creature.

You are what you desire. With your thoughts you make the world.

Galatians 5

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

The Son is the Supreme Self of all things, the image of God's Spirit. This is given to make more life. All things are the Son. Yahweh is the Ego of the Son that Jesus overcome to become Christ. Satan is the accuser, or conscience of Adam (Son of God). We are all Adam (Version of the Son). To overcome Yahweh / Satan, overcome the need for law. Love others. Once you do, you have met your self. Live long and prosper.




Ummm...OK...So life is what we make it. Selflessness is noteworthy...bragging about it is smug. Be excellent to each other. Duuuuude.

If God is my enemy, then I forgive him as well. He is one of the others to treat as myself. I recognize him, then see from within (insight, not outsight). This is something I explain in two posts here: Page 57 of the Challenge.
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17-01-2015, 01:18 PM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
(16-01-2015 05:17 PM)AlephBet Wrote:  
(03-01-2015 03:56 PM)The Drake Wrote:  What is "salvation" ? Can I be a complete asshole and still go to heaven ? Can I be the nicest person you know and still go to hell ? Are Buddhists allowed in "Eternity" ? Hindu ? Muslim ? Atheist ? Or is it a Jesus only club ?

The Ego is the Self unrestrained. Self Control is control of the Self. Selfish, is self centered. Selfless, is without self as a consideration. Salvation is a gift given to those who overcome the self. Overcoming is the gift that produces our nature. Nature is the characteristic of a creation. Become a new creature.

You are what you desire. With your thoughts you make the world.

Galatians 5

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

The Son is the Supreme Self of all things, the image of God's Spirit. This is given to make more life. All things are the Son. Yahweh is the Ego of the Son that Jesus overcome to become Christ. Satan is the accuser, or conscience of Adam (Son of God). We are all Adam (Version of the Son). To overcome Yahweh / Satan, overcome the need for law. Love others. Once you do, you have met your self. Live long and prosper.




AlephBet,

You wrote: You are what you desire. With your thoughts you make the world.


Question: Is this true because you want it to be true or would like it to be true, or is it true regardless of what anyone thinks?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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17-01-2015, 02:41 PM
RE: Can Atheists (or anyone who is not a "Christian") be "Saved"
I saw the title of the thread and my first thought was, "save me from what?" Save me from death? That'll never happen. We've all got to die someday. Save me from hell? The place that I have no evidence of. Who is suppose to be doing the saving?
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