Can God change his mind?
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21-01-2013, 10:09 AM
RE: Can God change his mind?
(21-01-2013 10:07 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-01-2013 09:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  If not, then prayer would seem useless.
Prayer as commonly understood - yes.

Prayer as what it's supposed to be - no.

Prayer isn't to request crap from God. It's for us to communicate to God so that He can reveal His will to us, comfort us, or explain things to us.

Somehow, it morphed into a Santa Claus list.
Prayer has always included the sense of asking for approval and direction and blessing and success from the gods; that's not something new.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-01-2013, 10:32 AM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2013 10:35 AM by Julius.)
RE: Can God change his mind?
(21-01-2013 10:07 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-01-2013 09:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  If not, then prayer would seem useless.
Prayer as commonly understood - yes.

Prayer as what it's supposed to be - no.

Prayer isn't to request crap from God. It's for us to communicate to God so that He can reveal His will to us, comfort us, or explain things to us.

Somehow, it morphed into a Santa Claus list.

I think the Biblical God would disagree with you about the nature of prayer:


Matthew 7: 8 “For everyone who
asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be
opened.9“Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will
give him a stone?10“Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake,
will he?11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to
those who ask Him!”


Mark 11:22 Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly, I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.
24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Dude...I thought you were a Christian? Don't you know this stuff?
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21-01-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: Can God change his mind?
(21-01-2013 09:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes and no.

Is God capable of changing His mind? Yes. He's omnipotent. He can do anything.

Does He change His mind? No. He's omniscient. His decisions were already made from infinity. His decisions are both future and active.

The question isn't really a problem once you understand the dynamic of omnipotence and omniscience.

Now, can God make a rock he cannot lift?

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21-01-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: Can God change his mind?
Yeah. God commands us to come to Him with our concerns and wants; however, that doesn't mean we're going to get it. He wants us to come to Him so He can have fellowship with us and reveal to us what He's doing.

I'm saying the common thought process of God as a wish genie is wholly incorrect.

Going to God with our desires is a form of fellowship and can even be a form of discipline.

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21-01-2013, 10:45 AM
RE: Can God change his mind?
(21-01-2013 10:35 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(21-01-2013 09:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes and no.

Is God capable of changing His mind? Yes. He's omnipotent. He can do anything.

Does He change His mind? No. He's omniscient. His decisions were already made from infinity. His decisions are both future and active.

The question isn't really a problem once you understand the dynamic of omnipotence and omniscience.

Now, can God make a rock he cannot lift?
That was to be my next question...

Obama promised you change. Reach in your pocket, feel those coins? There's your change...
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23-01-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: Can God change his mind?
(21-01-2013 10:45 AM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  
(21-01-2013 10:35 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Now, can God make a rock he cannot lift?
That was to be my next question...
Do I really need to address the God-Rock Paradox for eleventy billionth time?

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23-01-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: Can God change his mind?
Hey.

Just on the rock question, I can't remember where but we had a long talk about it. To speak to the conclusions that I drew from the conversation, an omnipotent being can do anything, even the impossible and that includes creating a paradox. So yes, he could theoretically make a rock too heavy for him to lift.





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23-01-2013, 12:33 PM
RE: Can God change his mind?
(23-01-2013 12:25 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Do I really need to address the God-Rock Paradox for eleventy billionth time?

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23-01-2013, 12:42 PM
 
RE: Can God change his mind?
(23-01-2013 12:29 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey.

Just on the rock question, I can't remember where but we had a long talk about it. To speak to the conclusions that I drew from the conversation, an omnipotent being can do anything, even the impossible and that includes creating a paradox. So yes, he could theoretically make a rock too heavy for him to lift.





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Brilliant! Bowing As someone who prides himself on posting an appropriate video from time to time, all I can say is brilliant! LOL

But, about God changing His mind, it's really not a paradox, but it's hard to understand. God does not exist in time. He exists in a permanent eternal present. Time is an illusion. Even here in the physical world, time is an illusion (The past doesn't exist anymore and the future hasn't happened.). So, even we live in an eternal present moment, and yet we are able to change our minds and to think about things. Consciousness in an eternal present moment is a bit like gravity: obviously it works, but we're not quite sure how. It may in fact mean that change, itself, is somewhat illusory, for without memory, we'd never recognize that change ever occured.

And what is memory, after all? It is the recreation in the mind of the past. If you take the present, and in that present moment, recreate the past, you get the experience of change.

Interesting topic. I like the way it forces us to examine the mind without trying to see it on an MRI screen.
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23-01-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Can God change his mind?
See, it's really quite simple.

God is omniscient. That means he knows everything, past, present, and future. If you say otherwise, then you're limiting god's omniscience. The word by definition means there is no limit to his knowledge, so you can't limit omniscience, therefore by definition, he knows the future. All of it.

And he always has, even before he said "Let there be light".

Which means everything he's ever done has been according to his plan with full fore-knowledge of the consequences of every act, no matter how minuscule. Therefore he did not do anything without already accepting that the outcome was what he wanted. Knowing that, it's easy to see that god never has any reason to change his mind because everything in the universe today was exactly the way he wanted it to be all those billions of years ago (or 6,000 years ago) when he created the universe.

If you pray to him to make your sick aunt get better, he won't change his mind because she's supposed to be sick. He knew she would have this illness even before he created the universe and it's all part of his plan. No reason to change his mind.

Etc.

As for the bible saying we should only ask it it will be given, the "ask" part of that passage has nothing to do with prayer, but rather it means "ask" in the bigger picture, as in accepting Jesus as your savior and God as your father, opening your heart to the holy trinity, etc. That is how you ask. And for him who asks all is given. Blah blah.

Easy to see, easy to justify. That's why it's thrived for two millennia with no end in sight.

Insidious, isn't it?

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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