Can God create a six sided pentagon?
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29-10-2012, 04:19 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(29-10-2012 08:00 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Starcrash.

You miss my point entirely and you have twice accused me of things I have not done. I've already made my point. It's clear. I'm moving on.

Hey, Bucky.

Accepting the fact that I disagree with you on a pretty fundamental level, you have accused me of redefining words to win my argument. I have done no such thing. I have used all of my terms (omnipotent, paradox, natural, supernatural) as defined. I'm just stating that for the record.

I now have a better understanding of your argument. Thank you.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Ghost, I didn't miss your point at all. You're claiming that God can do anything, and so if "violating a paradox" is any thing, then he can do it, right? Did I miss something there?

But violating a paradox is illogical. It is an axiom (a rule of logic) that if two things are mutually exclusive, that the things belonging to both sets is null (nothing). This is such an easy concept that even children understand it. If I tell my 5-year-old "no", she doesn't ask if that's a "yes no", because she understands that it can only be yes or no. God cannot have limitless powers and put limits on his powers any more than he can act within logic and outside of it simultaneously.

Here's what assuming your conclusion leads to: If God always tells the truth, then that doesn't mean that he doesn't lie; He can achieve mutually-exclusive events since He is omnipotent (according to you), thus he can tell "true lies" or "fibbing honesty" (lies and truth at the same time). He can both exist and not exist simultaneously. He can be both loving and hating. Fill in your own -- the possibilities of absurdity are endless.

Allah is also assumed to be omnipotent, so even if we knew for a fact that God existed and that He was telling the truth that He was the one and only god, by applying your standard it would also be possible for Allah to be existent since he could do the impossible, being omnipotent and all by assumption.

It's just stupid. If you assume that mutually-exclusive things can be true (even in the case of assumed omnipotence), then you'd never be able to prove or disprove anything by deduction.

But I'm calling you out. Yes, you defended the theist position yet again, and I'm quite certain that you always do. It could be my confirmation bias missing the times that you take the atheist position, but a quick browse of past posts reminds me that I've missed nothing. You're like Lee Strobel in The Case For Christ, pretending to be impartial because you think you'll gain credibility that way. Or maybe you're just in the closet and completely unaware that you always play the part of a theist. Either way, this "agnostic" claim is bullshit.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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29-10-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(29-10-2012 04:19 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(29-10-2012 08:00 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Starcrash.

You miss my point entirely and you have twice accused me of things I have not done. I've already made my point. It's clear. I'm moving on.

Hey, Bucky.

Accepting the fact that I disagree with you on a pretty fundamental level, you have accused me of redefining words to win my argument. I have done no such thing. I have used all of my terms (omnipotent, paradox, natural, supernatural) as defined. I'm just stating that for the record.

I now have a better understanding of your argument. Thank you.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Ghost, I didn't miss your point at all. You're claiming that God can do anything, and so if "violating a paradox" is any thing, then he can do it, right? Did I miss something there?

But violating a paradox is illogical. It is an axiom (a rule of logic) that if two things are mutually exclusive, that the things belonging to both sets is null (nothing). This is such an easy concept that even children understand it. If I tell my 5-year-old "no", she doesn't ask if that's a "yes no", because she understands that it can only be yes or no. God cannot have limitless powers and put limits on his powers any more than he can act within logic and outside of it simultaneously.

Here's what assuming your conclusion leads to: If God always tells the truth, then that doesn't mean that he doesn't lie; He can achieve mutually-exclusive events since He is omnipotent (according to you), thus he can tell "true lies" or "fibbing honesty" (lies and truth at the same time). He can both exist and not exist simultaneously. He can be both loving and hating. Fill in your own -- the possibilities of absurdity are endless.

Allah is also assumed to be omnipotent, so even if we knew for a fact that God existed and that He was telling the truth that He was the one and only god, by applying your standard it would also be possible for Allah to be existent since he could do the impossible, being omnipotent and all by assumption.

It's just stupid. If you assume that mutually-exclusive things can be true (even in the case of assumed omnipotence), then you'd never be able to prove or disprove anything by deduction.

But I'm calling you out. Yes, you defended the theist position yet again, and I'm quite certain that you always do. It could be my confirmation bias missing the times that you take the atheist position, but a quick browse of past posts reminds me that I've missed nothing. You're like Lee Strobel in The Case For Christ, pretending to be impartial because you think you'll gain credibility that way. Or maybe you're just in the closet and completely unaware that you always play the part of a theist. Either way, this "agnostic" claim is bullshit.

I don't see the problem here. You're using logic to describe the indescribable (if it were to exist). We demand logic, but who says an almighty God has to follow your rules? That seems illogical to me. Smile

If there were a Creator God, that being could do whatever it damn well pleased. Just because we don't see the logic in it doesn't make it a null proposition. That God makes the rules for creation, not the other way around. So if there was a God, it could make an immovable object AND it could move the object. How? Hell if I know. I'm not god. This doesn't in the least mean that I support the existence of said being. It's just that we have no way of guaranteeing this kind of being could never exist.

As to the accusation of "agnostic bullshit" I actually have less of a problem with an agnostic than I do with a gnostic atheist. You don't KNOW there is no god. The agnostic is at least being intellectually honest about this.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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29-10-2012, 08:26 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(29-10-2012 04:36 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(29-10-2012 04:19 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Ghost, I didn't miss your point at all. You're claiming that God can do anything, and so if "violating a paradox" is any thing, then he can do it, right? Did I miss something there?

But violating a paradox is illogical. It is an axiom (a rule of logic) that if two things are mutually exclusive, that the things belonging to both sets is null (nothing). This is such an easy concept that even children understand it. If I tell my 5-year-old "no", she doesn't ask if that's a "yes no", because she understands that it can only be yes or no. God cannot have limitless powers and put limits on his powers any more than he can act within logic and outside of it simultaneously.

Here's what assuming your conclusion leads to: If God always tells the truth, then that doesn't mean that he doesn't lie; He can achieve mutually-exclusive events since He is omnipotent (according to you), thus he can tell "true lies" or "fibbing honesty" (lies and truth at the same time). He can both exist and not exist simultaneously. He can be both loving and hating. Fill in your own -- the possibilities of absurdity are endless.

Allah is also assumed to be omnipotent, so even if we knew for a fact that God existed and that He was telling the truth that He was the one and only god, by applying your standard it would also be possible for Allah to be existent since he could do the impossible, being omnipotent and all by assumption.

It's just stupid. If you assume that mutually-exclusive things can be true (even in the case of assumed omnipotence), then you'd never be able to prove or disprove anything by deduction.

But I'm calling you out. Yes, you defended the theist position yet again, and I'm quite certain that you always do. It could be my confirmation bias missing the times that you take the atheist position, but a quick browse of past posts reminds me that I've missed nothing. You're like Lee Strobel in The Case For Christ, pretending to be impartial because you think you'll gain credibility that way. Or maybe you're just in the closet and completely unaware that you always play the part of a theist. Either way, this "agnostic" claim is bullshit.

I don't see the problem here. You're using logic to describe the indescribable (if it were to exist). We demand logic, but who says an almighty God has to follow your rules? That seems illogical to me. Smile

If there were a Creator God, that being could do whatever it damn well pleased. Just because we don't see the logic in it doesn't make it a null proposition. That God makes the rules for creation, not the other way around. So if there was a God, it could make an immovable object AND it could move the object. How? Hell if I know. I'm not god. This doesn't in the least mean that I support the existence of said being. It's just that we have no way of guaranteeing this kind of being could never exist.

As to the accusation of "agnostic bullshit" I actually have less of a problem with an agnostic than I do with a gnostic atheist. You don't KNOW there is no god. The agnostic is at least being intellectually honest about this.

Yes, God has to follow logic. He doesn't have to "use logical reasoning" or "believe in logic", but his existence does have to be logical. To say that God is outside of the realm of logic doesn't mean that He is, but that you are in making such a claim.

Logic describes reality. It's not some arbitrary system that we came up with, but rather one that we learned how to use. Mutually-exclusive things cannot both be true. Whether or not you "like" this idea or "approve of" this, it's the way things are... two things that can't be possible simultaneously cannot both be possible. The fact that this is true within the framework of logic doesn't mean that mutually-exclusive things could both be true if you dismiss logic -- logic is just a term we use to encapsulate many truths such as this. Logic isn't just some game where you can ignore the rules if you feel like cheating.

Now in reference to omnipotence, we should never refer to what an omnipotent beings can or cannot do because we have no example of omnipotence -- the best we can do is guess. We have no proof that it's possible, and thought experiments like this suggest that it's not. We may posit what's possible with omnipotence, but there's simply no way to know because we can't study it. But I did give some fine examples of what would be true if we accepted Ghost's hypothesis, and I'm pretty sure he's not willing to accept those as possible.

And why not? Because Ghost is a theist. It's nice that you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but you have to ignore the evidence to do so. The only evidence that I can find for Ghost being simply "agnostic" is his own claim that he is. He says he doesn't take sides, but he's always and repeatedly arguing the theistic point-of-view, and not in the careful language of the uncertain such as "if we assume that omnipotence exists..." but in the fundamentalist terms of "omnipotent beings can...". I myself am an agnostic atheist, but I'm not impartial and do not pretend to be. Sometimes I disagree with atheists, but that's only because I value reason and rational thought above atheism, and I will side with it when I feel that atheists argue against it. Ghost's views are not consistent with reason, and in this argument (among others) he'll abandon it for the theistic viewpoint. It's not just here, though... look at his past posts and see if you ever catch him properly framing the atheist point-of-view or attempting to debate from such a view.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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29-10-2012, 08:30 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2012 08:33 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
[This response removed because the author can't figure out how to delete it, and when he wrote it was apparently smoking butt-crack.]

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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29-10-2012, 09:20 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
Hey, Starcrash.

Quote: This is such an easy concept that even children understand it.

Then I must be a foetus. Good thing the Tea Party calls me life otherwise you might try to abort me.

You don't understand what I'm saying. You think you do but you've demonstrated that you don't. And since you're being so rude, I have no desire to continue the conversation.

Quote:-- the possibilities of absurdity are endless.

They are.

Call out whatever you like. I know who I am and I don't care if you do not. I have no time for your GW Bush you're either with us or you're with the terrorists nonsense.

And for the record, I take neither the Theist nor the Atheist position. So what your confirmation bias is telling you is "Matt rarely agrees with me." That would be accurate.
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29-10-2012, 09:26 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(29-10-2012 08:26 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(29-10-2012 04:36 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I don't see the problem here. You're using logic to describe the indescribable (if it were to exist). We demand logic, but who says an almighty God has to follow your rules? That seems illogical to me. Smile

If there were a Creator God, that being could do whatever it damn well pleased. Just because we don't see the logic in it doesn't make it a null proposition. That God makes the rules for creation, not the other way around. So if there was a God, it could make an immovable object AND it could move the object. How? Hell if I know. I'm not god. This doesn't in the least mean that I support the existence of said being. It's just that we have no way of guaranteeing this kind of being could never exist.

As to the accusation of "agnostic bullshit" I actually have less of a problem with an agnostic than I do with a gnostic atheist. You don't KNOW there is no god. The agnostic is at least being intellectually honest about this.

Yes, God has to follow logic. He doesn't have to "use logical reasoning" or "believe in logic", but his existence does have to be logical. To say that God is outside of the realm of logic doesn't mean that He is, but that you are in making such a claim.

Logic describes reality. It's not some arbitrary system that we came up with, but rather one that we learned how to use. Mutually-exclusive things cannot both be true. Whether or not you "like" this idea or "approve of" this, it's the way things are... two things that can't be possible simultaneously cannot both be possible. The fact that this is true within the framework of logic doesn't mean that mutually-exclusive things could both be true if you dismiss logic -- logic is just a term we use to encapsulate many truths such as this. Logic isn't just some game where you can ignore the rules if you feel like cheating.

Now in reference to omnipotence, we should never refer to what an omnipotent beings can or cannot do because we have no example of omnipotence -- the best we can do is guess. We have no proof that it's possible, and thought experiments like this suggest that it's not. We may posit what's possible with omnipotence, but there's simply no way to know because we can't study it. But I did give some fine examples of what would be true if we accepted Ghost's hypothesis, and I'm pretty sure he's not willing to accept those as possible.

And why not? Because Ghost is a theist. It's nice that you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but you have to ignore the evidence to do so. The only evidence that I can find for Ghost being simply "agnostic" is his own claim that he is. He says he doesn't take sides, but he's always and repeatedly arguing the theistic point-of-view, and not in the careful language of the uncertain such as "if we assume that omnipotence exists..." but in the fundamentalist terms of "omnipotent beings can...". I myself am an agnostic atheist, but I'm not impartial and do not pretend to be. Sometimes I disagree with atheists, but that's only because I value reason and rational thought above atheism, and I will side with it when I feel that atheists argue against it. Ghost's views are not consistent with reason, and in this argument (among others) he'll abandon it for the theistic viewpoint. It's not just here, though... look at his past posts and see if you ever catch him properly framing the atheist point-of-view or attempting to debate from such a view.

It's nice that you're willing to tell people what they believe.

And it's nice that I've remembered why I don't interact with you much.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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29-10-2012, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2012 08:29 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(29-10-2012 08:26 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Yes, God has to follow logic.

Actually, as I see it, if a god HAS to 'follow Logic", (whatever that means), it actually proves that god is not god.

If there is a structure in Reality "apart" from god, against which the god can be compared, or measured, of necessity, it means that god is not the creator of ALL of Reality. ((If a standard (of *godness*) exists which is necessary for god, the god is not god.) ...where did the standard come from ?

Logic does not "exist" *out there* somewhere. It's a human system which exists in some human brains. many things which we perceive as logical, are not true. Thus human logic is not reliable.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-10-2012, 08:23 AM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(29-10-2012 08:51 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-10-2012 04:49 PM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  Can God eliminate all confusion regarding religion by physically showing himself to everyone in the world and answering all the questions about his expectations of us?Apparently not. There. Omnipotence disproved. Ok, not really, but the logic is just as bad

You seem to have a biblical view of God. You need to get beyond that. You may only be someone who doesn't believe Christian or Jewish theology which is fine. Many go to church every Sunday with an eye as skeptical as yours. They go for social reasons and for respect that they get in the community.

I'm not sure why you would assume that from what I said. No god - Biblical or otherwise - has ever shown him/her/itself to everyone and answered those questions. The only assumption my point makes is that a god would have some sort of consciousness and the ability to show him/her/itself to us. However, I can't imagine any god not having those because anything else would either not be a "being" or would amount to no more than an alternate species with different, perhaps greater, abilities than us. Furthermore, the whole nature of your post assumes the same which is what I was replying to.

The question was one posed by non-believers to sow doubts about the power of a God. I was answering the question within that frame work. I am searching for God, or Godness. I choose to believe otherwise I have no reason to search.

Why doesn't God just show himself to satisfy the doubters? I don't know. There is a lot of fiction that he has - but was locked up in an insane asylum. Doubters are going to have to find out the hard way.
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30-10-2012, 08:38 AM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(30-10-2012 08:23 AM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  Doubters are going to have to find out the hard way.

That is an interesting position of Modern American Fundamentalism, and quite "un" Christian, actually. You see folks, Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen", and "no one shall come to me, unless the Father draw him". Jesus would not have gone to the bother to actually say those things, if HE actually thought EVERYONE was automatically called, and chosen.

It also is the usual clap-trap about the (supposed), "moral failing" of doubt. In traditional Christianity, there is such a concept of "authentic doubt". (See St. John of the Cross' "Dark Night of the Soul" etc .. there are many examples of "authentic doubt"). American Fundies have exchanged this Christian view with the one that says ALL doubt in inauthentic, and represents a (moral) failing. It also is a statement about their god. If someone "honestly" doubts, and yet *says* to god "I believe",
a. it's a lie
b. if anyone thinks that a god would not know it's a lie, they have a really stupid god.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-10-2012, 09:53 AM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(29-10-2012 09:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-10-2012 08:26 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Yes, God has to follow logic.

Actually, as I see it, if a god HAS to 'follow Logic", (whatever that means), it actually proves that god is not god.

If there is a structure in Reality "apart" from god, against which the god can be compared, or measured, of necessity, it means that god is not the creator of ALL of Reality. ((If a standard (of *godness*) exists which is necessary for god, the god is not god.) ...where did the standard come from ?

Logic does not "exist" *out there* somewhere. It's a human system which exists in some human brains. many things which we perceive as logical, are not true. Thus human logic is not reliable.

Nah. Logic is mathematics is physics. It all exists and is objective truth.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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