Can God create a six sided pentagon?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-10-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
Here's my too lazy to read seven pages two cents.

Can any of us fly under our own power? No. Because there are rules. Gravity. Aerodynamics. Lift. Thrust. We cannot violate them because we are bound by them.

Can Superman fly under his own power? Yes. Why? Because he's SUPER. The same rules apply to the universe itself, he can just violate them because he has supernatural powers; the power to act above or beyond the natural rules. He can simply fly for some reason; a seemingly inexplicable one. (And please no, yeah, but Superman doesn't exist retorts, just follow along)

Can any of us cause a paradox? No. Because there are rules (and quite frankly, I'm not going to pretend I'm a physicist and try to name them, but I'm sure it has something to do with space-time and brain-hurting math). We cannot violate the rules because we are bound by them.

Can God cause a paradox? Yes. Why. Because he's SUPER. The same rules apply to the universe itself, he can just violate them because he has supernatural powers; the power to act above or beyond the natural rules. He can simply cause paradoxes for some reason; a seemingly inexplicable one. (And please no, yeah, but God doesn't exist retorts, just follow along).

It all seems inexplicable because we use the very rules they are violating to explain things. All we're left with is, "That doesn't make any sense."

So, can God create a six-sided pentagon? Yes. Because NONE of the rules apply to him. He can violate whatever rule he wants at will. We just can't comprehend what that means because we're limited by the rule. Just like I can't comprehend what it means to fly like Superman.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Ghost's post
28-10-2012, 12:43 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
OP: Look, you're just cutting and pasting entries from your blog here.

You're a spammer and I'm calling you out as a spammer.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2012, 06:43 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(28-10-2012 11:54 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Here's my too lazy to read seven pages two cents.

Can any of us fly under our own power? No. Because there are rules. Gravity. Aerodynamics. Lift. Thrust. We cannot violate them because we are bound by them.

Can Superman fly under his own power? Yes. Why? Because he's SUPER. The same rules apply to the universe itself, he can just violate them because he has supernatural powers; the power to act above or beyond the natural rules. He can simply fly for some reason; a seemingly inexplicable one. (And please no, yeah, but Superman doesn't exist retorts, just follow along)

Can any of us cause a paradox? No. Because there are rules (and quite frankly, I'm not going to pretend I'm a physicist and try to name them, but I'm sure it has something to do with space-time and brain-hurting math). We cannot violate the rules because we are bound by them.

Can God cause a paradox? Yes. Why. Because he's SUPER. The same rules apply to the universe itself, he can just violate them because he has supernatural powers; the power to act above or beyond the natural rules. He can simply cause paradoxes for some reason; a seemingly inexplicable one. (And please no, yeah, but God doesn't exist retorts, just follow along).

It all seems inexplicable because we use the very rules they are violating to explain things. All we're left with is, "That doesn't make any sense."

So, can God create a six-sided pentagon? Yes. Because NONE of the rules apply to him. He can violate whatever rule he wants at will. We just can't comprehend what that means because we're limited by the rule. Just like I can't comprehend what it means to fly like Superman.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

This begs the question (assumes the conclusion as a premise for coming to the conclusion). How can you know that God can violate paradoxes at will? Have you observed this? Can you test it? Or is it merely a tautology based on your definition of God (God can violate paradoxes because he is a being that can violate paradoxes)?

People tell me you're an agnostic, but assumptions like this make me doubt that very much.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2012, 07:21 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
Hey, Starcrash.

Quote: People tell me you're an agnostic, but assumptions like this make me doubt that very much.

Ugh, please, just don't even go there.

I don't know that God exists, so no, I haven't seen anything. And when in 1 500+ posts have you ever seen me argue that something is something because it's something? Give me some credit. This is a logical conclusion. If a being is omnipotent then they can do anything, by definition. If they can't do everything, then they aren't omnipotent. If some things are impossible, then omnipotence itself doesn't exist. Thus, if God is indeed omnipotent then yes, God can do anything. Furthermore, supernatural, by definition, means beyond the natural. Paradoxes are precluded by natural law; therefore, only a supernatural being could create one. If God isn't supernatural, then he's natural, like gravity and zits and cannot possibly be omnipotent. If God is not assumed to be omnipotent, then the question asked by the OP is irrelevant. Thus God must be, by definition, both omnipotent and supernatural. So yes, an omnipotent supernatural God could create a paradox by making a six-sided pentagon because the rules that prevent you and I from doing so don't apply to such a being.

Now, the reason I fruitlessly begged for no "yeah but God doesn't exist" questions is because nowhere am I making the argument that God exists. I have no idea if he does or not. But what I do know is that in order to be God, he has to meet certain criteria; namely, being supernatural and omnipotent (while omnipotence is not a strict requisite as far as I'm concerned, it must be assumed in the context of the OP's conversation). I know for fact that my ham sandwich is not God because it fails to meet those criteria.

Please understand that there are those of us that fall outside of the binary duel between is God/ain't God people. We can discuss the matter and present logical arguments without taking sides.

Quote:It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-Aristotle

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Ghost's post
28-10-2012, 07:34 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
I was just gonna say Ghost is a presuppositional supernaturalist. Tongue

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like houseofcantor's post
28-10-2012, 08:01 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
Gods can't "make" anything.

A timeless being "acting" in (space)time refutes it's own property of timelessness, (or "eternal" nature).

God's "creating" things requires absolute linear time, and Causality, both of which need to be "caused" a priori, ( -> infinite regression), AND have the potential to be created BEFORE that, AND the "intention" of the god(s) BEFORE the creative act.

So sad. Too bad.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2012, 10:21 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
Hey, Bucky.

Perhaps God isn't omnipotent. Perhaps he's just prettydangpotent. Perhaps he doesn't exist. Perhaps a million things. All of it is conjecture. The only thing that is absolutely required is that if God exists, then God must be supernatural. But the question at hand demands that we begin with the assumption that God is in fact omnipotent and the word can't does not apply to an omnipotent being.

Quote: A timeless being "acting" in (space)time refutes it's own property of timelessness, (or "eternal" nature).

Timelessness is a word you have applied. I don't see its relevance.

In fact, I do believe that this is a strawman argument.

An omnipotent entity can do anything inside or outside of space-time, or for that matter, anything with or to space time. An omnipotent being, by definition, has zero limitations.

Quote:God's "creating" things requires absolute linear time, and Causality, both of which need to be "caused" a priori, ( -> infinite regression), AND have the potential to be created BEFORE that, AND the "intention" of the god(s) BEFORE the creative act.

Firstly, linear time doesn't exist. Space-time exists as a whole. We simply perceive time as something that unfolds in a line.

Secondly, creation in no way demands linear time. Could you explain your assertion?

Thirdly, causality is a very specific theory that states that everything that happens inexorably causes the next thing, a sort of cosmic predestination. I don't see how that applies here. I believe you misused the word.

Fourth, rules such as time, cause and effect, before and after simply do not apply to an omnipotent being. If they do, then the being is not omnipotent. What has been asked is "does an omnipotent being have limitations?" The assumption of the question is that God, the being in question, is in fact omnipotent. So none of the limitations that you are outlining apply.

I don't think that you quite achieved the too bad so sad slam dunk that you feel you did.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2012, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2012 01:29 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(28-10-2012 10:21 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Bucky.

Perhaps God isn't omnipotent. Perhaps he's just prettydangpotent. Perhaps he doesn't exist. Perhaps a million things. All of it is conjecture. The only thing that is absolutely required is that if God exists, then God must be supernatural. But the question at hand demands that we begin with the assumption that God is in fact omnipotent and the word can't does not apply to an omnipotent being.

Quote: A timeless being "acting" in (space)time refutes it's own property of timelessness, (or "eternal" nature).

Timelessness is a word you have applied. I don't see its relevance.

In fact, I do believe that this is a strawman argument.

An omnipotent entity can do anything inside or outside of space-time, or for that matter, anything with or to space time. An omnipotent being, by definition, has zero limitations.

Quote:God's "creating" things requires absolute linear time, and Causality, both of which need to be "caused" a priori, ( -> infinite regression), AND have the potential to be created BEFORE that, AND the "intention" of the god(s) BEFORE the creative act.

Firstly, linear time doesn't exist. Space-time exists as a whole. We simply perceive time as something that unfolds in a line.

Secondly, creation in no way demands linear time. Could you explain your assertion?

Thirdly, causality is a very specific theory that states that everything that happens inexorably causes the next thing, a sort of cosmic predestination. I don't see how that applies here. I believe you misused the word.

Fourth, rules such as time, cause and effect, before and after simply do not apply to an omnipotent being. If they do, then the being is not omnipotent. What has been asked is "does an omnipotent being have limitations?" The assumption of the question is that God, the being in question, is in fact omnipotent. So none of the limitations that you are outlining apply.

I don't think that you quite achieved the too bad so sad slam dunk that you feel you did.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Who says the ONLY thing required is that the god is "supernatural" ? That's how YOU have defined it for YOURSELF. Not me.
The word "supernatural" is actually meaningless. It has "above" (one directional) content. It comes from the ancient double-decker universe. I would say "other than" natural. Your point of prettydangpotent is valid. BUT, an omnipotent god could have made universe makers with ANY, or infinite levels of powers, and some or all of them granted the powers to make universes, and do stuff. Can an omnipotent god make a god who has every power than itself ? If not, it is not the omnipotent creator of Reality. If so, .... there could be an infinite #'s gods.

Timelessness IS the theological definition of "eternal". In theology "eternal" is NOT infinite time". If a god created the universe it REQUIRED (space)time. Either way, creation is impossible with out created time, a priori for the act to occur in. That's the relevance.

Spacetime "exits" in the world of the theists. It does NOT exist outside this universe. If Causality is valid, linear time MUST exist in the world of the god(s). If cause does not precede effect, the word has no meaning.

"Doing" implies time. Humans "*saying* "gods can do anything" is self refuting and harms the integrity of the word "do". An action requires time. Otherwise there is no linguistic integrity. You can't redefine words to suit an argument.

The very fact that you apply a property to a god, means the standard "all powerful" exists apart from the god. If the god does not participate of necessity, (non-omnipotent), in only PART of Reality, means it's not infinite, and that a standard, (omnipotent vs non) exists APART from the god. How can a god which is only omnipotent also create non-omnipotence, and still be only a part of Reality ? A real god would have to be "another level up" from omnipotent vs non-omnipotent. It's a structure in which it necessary participates, (only partially).

"everything that happens inexorably causes the next thing,"
Exactly. THAT requires absolute linear time.

If an omnipotent being IS a "cause", in the English language, it does require linear time. You can Special Plead any property you want about a god, (which has no evidence, so just as all of metaphysics is all woo-woo), if the words have meaning in the English language, they mean what they mean. If you are going to give "special definitions" to your words you must do so BEFORE you make your argument. If you say a god "can do anything", thus is omnipotent, great. "Doing" requires time. It's not a problem about the god, it's a linguistic problem of description, using the word "do". So YOU must find another way to describe your god.

So sad. Too bad.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2012, 10:56 PM
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
I really thought he was talking about the pentagram and the idea that god cannot do that which is against him self, but after looking at his site he really meant the shape. Sad

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes fstratzero's post
28-10-2012, 11:05 PM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2012 11:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Can God create a six sided pentagon?
(28-10-2012 10:56 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I really thought he was talking about the pentagram and the idea that god cannot do that which is against him self, but after looking at his site he really meant the shape. Sad

"Making a six sided pentagram" is not a problem of omnipotence.
It's a linguist fallacy. It has nothing to do with a (possible) power of a god.
It's about the true meanings of human language, and linguistic integrity.
Words have a meaning to humans, or they don't.
A pentagram does not *mean* the same thing as a hexagram *means*.
It would mean the god could make two different ideas, *mean* the same thing.
Can a god create different things with the same meaning ? (Not unless truth and non-truth are the same thing).
No. But the god has limited itself, a priori, because it has already created the Reality.
In creating reality it has ALREADY exercised omnipotence.
If the god creates Reality, and IN that created Reality, a five sided figure is not the same as six sided one, the god has already exercised his power in establishing the difference. So could a god say 5 sided figures have the same meaning as 6 sided ones. No. Because the god has already created the difference.
If the words have two true meanings they cannot be the same IN A HUMAN MIND.
It's about language, not gods. Nothing more.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: