Can Privatized Prisons Work?
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25-08-2016, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2016 12:57 PM by adey67.)
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
(25-08-2016 11:35 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 03:18 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Heywood is a filthy little fucker who deserves at least a ban Rocket you have my full supporto for what its worth. Quite frankly the prevarication of the administration makes me nervous about being here myself. If someone spams this forum they are out usually very quickly too, but suggest that someone is a pederast or woman beater and its oh well we will suspend them and may or may not ban them wtf !!!!

For the record, this is a load of shite. I'm very tired of people deciding for themselves what the admins job should be and how they should perform it. If you don't like how we do things here, you are free to move on. I've said it a thousand times...this forum is not for everyone.

Why has this pissed you off so much ? Especially as when the victim explained it to me I was at pains too say I meant no disrespect and was just angry that a decent member had been accused of pedarasty ? I'm sure you do a great job but I refute that my post was shite it was a post of support and care for a fellow member but fuck it I'm out of here never let it be said I stayed anywhere I was not wanted I'll pop in to collect personal messages and anyone who wants to stay in contact I will give them my email . Very sad right now Sad infact almost in tears as tta means so much to me.
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25-08-2016, 12:58 PM
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
Holy. Fucking. Shit. Shocking

Wow. I was avoiding this thread because, from the title, it seemed like another blatant trolling attempt by the OP.

Damn.

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25-08-2016, 12:58 PM
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
Any decision anyone makes - is going to piss SOMEBODY off......

Such is life...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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25-08-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
Censorship v harrassment, The University of Chicago in a letter from the Dean to the freshman class expressed it this way.

[Image: Cqp6k_2XgAA--ks.jpg]

The short version: It was necessary for the quality of the forum

The long version: I know that it is impossible to protect all the members and their individual sensitivities from every twit that comes on the forum. One of the more outstanding ways we are different than xtian forums is that we tolerate dissent. This won’t be the last time such assholery will rear it’s head and each instance will need to be carefully weighed to find the proper balance.

In my opinion the mods took the correct step. Heywood had plenty of time to mull over the feedback and show remorse, feigned or otherwise. I will miss him because he was such a GREAT, BAD example of his brand of xtianity. The hypocrisy is what caused me to question my beliefs so many years ago.

I vacilate sometimes on determining to what degree the Forum is an echo chamber and refuge on the one hand and a place to have spirited debates with dissenters on the other. I think it is both and needs to be both. I know I want it to be both.

A quiet, protected place is nice but boring. A free-for-all is intolerable.
Such a fine line to walk huh?

My hat’s off to the moderators for volunteering their time to run this place and make the tough decisions.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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25-08-2016, 01:08 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2016 01:18 PM by Shai Hulud.)
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
(25-08-2016 09:38 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I’ll admit to being terribly naive about this, but it just seems to me that bundling all prisoners into the same group is dangerous, counter-productive for rehabilitation, and frankly very expensive. Why aren’t some of the prisons operating as self-funded communities? At least some of the prisoners are non-violent and capable of performing tasks that can bring in income to support themselves. I’m sure there are non-violent prisoners who would be chomping at the bit to work a 9-5 job. Income generated from government contracts (like performing factory work) could offset the operational costs of the facility.

It just seems to me that in such a model, all parties are being appealed to. Tax payers could get a break by having prisoners fund their own incarcerations (at least in part), and prisoners would be productive and have a higher standard of living. They’d also be housed with like-minded people who are not violent so they wouldn’t be constantly worried about their safety. -Get caught with drugs in your system, weapons, or starting a fight, then you get sent back to the facility from whence you came.

Further, ALL prisoners should be offered opportunities for a high school diploma, and many prisoners should have access to bachelor’s programs. Can’t we get universities to donate extra spaces in online classrooms to prisons? It could be a tax-write-off.
Been trying not to comment in here, lest I lose my temper with someone who is now no longer with us...but now that he isn't, this is a question I can somewhat answer. On the self-funded communities question, that is. You can thank the Federal government and the Great Depression respectively. While we've repealed some of the laws that went into place during the Depression related to prison industry, there are still a great deal about what is and isn't allowed to compete in the public marketplace. During the Depression, the government acted swiftly (and in my opinion correctly) to place great limitations on what prison industry was allowed to do and who they could sell to, because they were undercutting jobs of still employed American workers and posing a risk to the national economy. Also, one of FDR's aids, a sociologist of crime, was said to have warned that if we let prisons put people out of work, they might turn to crime to feed their families, causing both crime and economic damage in the form of theft, and then the court costs, then the costs to house and feed them in prison, and thus create something of a poverty to prison loop. (Sadly we have, arguably, one of these today...but during the Depression such a thing would have been a threat to the economy and national security.)

Basically the remnants of those laws are why we see things like Congressional desks being made in prison settings. Or public universities using inmates to do their lawnwork*. Or other prisons for that matter. One Federal penitentiary I once toured, had people who were doing the lawnwork and mopping the lobby floors, who were from a nearby state facility for minimum security inmates.

*That's been the case at both my undergrad and grad schools. Although, Aramark was also the food provider at my graduate school.

Slowminded paraphrased the famous quote, "You can judge a society by how well it treats its prisoners" by Fyodor Dostoevsky, and it's quite true. Private prisons, at least in my personal opinion as someone who has volunteered in state run facilities and taken tours of both public and private facilities, are a stain on American society and reflects how we often put profits ahead of people. RS I'm so sorry you suffered the way you did there and glad you made it out alive. I've heard horror stories of some facilities, no names since this is a public post, about correctional officers on private prisons with farms firing shotguns above the heads of the farming inmates for laughs, not caring if some of the buckshot drops and injures them in the head.

Edit: In fairness for full disclosure, I actually am working (as a volunteer) with a private juvenile detention facility as of this writing to help make certain that their juvenile detainees know their rights and to make certain the staff knows what is and isn't okay. The guy in charge is in it for a profit, but as he sees it, mistreatment doesn't profit him, nor do horror stories, so he tries to keep the place running well and the juveniles there, treated with the humanity they deserve. I've seen him fire people, while I've sat in the room, for violating his code of conduct.

Edit2:
(25-08-2016 01:06 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  My hat’s off to the moderators for volunteering their time to run this place and make the tough decisions.
Ditto. Over on PM, I get messages in my inbox almost daily of people whining about each other. And then if you edit a post or lock a thread it's nothing but how you're worse than Hitler, according to the offended people, and how a "Real Catholic" wouldn't have locked that thread. So my hat is also off to the mods here.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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25-08-2016, 01:10 PM
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
(25-08-2016 01:06 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Censorship v harrassment, The University of Chicago in a letter from the Dean to the freshman class expressed it this way.

[Image: Cqp6k_2XgAA--ks.jpg]

The short version: It was necessary for the quality of the forum

The long version: I know that it is impossible to protect all the members and their individual sensitivities from every twit that comes on the forum. One of the more outstanding ways we are different than xtian forums is that we tolerate dissent. This won’t be the last time such assholery will rear it’s head and each instance will need to be carefully weighed to find the proper balance.

In my opinion the mods took the correct step. Heywood had plenty of time to mull over the feedback and show remorse, feigned or otherwise. I will miss him because he was such a GREAT, BAD example of his brand of xtianity. The hypocrisy is what caused me to question my beliefs so many years ago.

I vacilate sometimes on determining to what degree the Forum is an echo chamber and refuge on the one hand and a place to have spirited debates with dissenters on the other. I think it is both and needs to be both. I know I want it to be both.

A quiet, protected place is nice but boring. A free-for-all is intolerable.
Such a fine line to walk huh?

My hat’s off to the moderators for volunteering their time to run this place and make the tough decisions.

I agree but I just don't think I deserved the response I got.
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25-08-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
(25-08-2016 01:08 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 09:38 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I’ll admit to being terribly naive about this, but it just seems to me that bundling all prisoners into the same group is dangerous, counter-productive for rehabilitation, and frankly very expensive. Why aren’t some of the prisons operating as self-funded communities? At least some of the prisoners are non-violent and capable of performing tasks that can bring in income to support themselves. I’m sure there are non-violent prisoners who would be chomping at the bit to work a 9-5 job. Income generated from government contracts (like performing factory work) could offset the operational costs of the facility.

It just seems to me that in such a model, all parties are being appealed to. Tax payers could get a break by having prisoners fund their own incarcerations (at least in part), and prisoners would be productive and have a higher standard of living. They’d also be housed with like-minded people who are not violent so they wouldn’t be constantly worried about their safety. -Get caught with drugs in your system, weapons, or starting a fight, then you get sent back to the facility from whence you came.

Further, ALL prisoners should be offered opportunities for a high school diploma, and many prisoners should have access to bachelor’s programs. Can’t we get universities to donate extra spaces in online classrooms to prisons? It could be a tax-write-off.
Been trying not to comment in here, lest I lose my temper with someone who is now no longer with us...but now that he isn't, this is a question I can somewhat answer. On the self-funded communities question, that is. You can thank the Federal government and the Great Depression respectively. While we've repealed some of the laws that went into place during the Depression related to prison industry, there are still a great deal about what is and isn't allowed to compete in the public marketplace. During the Depression, the government acted swiftly (and in my opinion correctly) to place great limitations on what prison industry was allowed to do and who they could sell to, because they were undercutting jobs of still employed American workers and posing a risk to the national economy. Also, one of FDR's aids, a sociologist of crime, was said to have warned that if we let prisons put people out of work, they might turn to crime to feed their families, causing both crime and economic damage in the form of theft, and then the court costs, then the costs to house and feed them in prison, and thus create something of a poverty to prison loop. (Sadly we have, arguably, one of these today...but during the Depression such a thing would have been a threat to the economy and national security.)

Basically the remnants of those laws are why we see things like Congressional desks being made in prison settings. Or public universities using inmates to do their lawnwork*. Or other prisons for that matter. One Federal penitentiary I once toured, had people who were doing the lawnwork and mopping the lobby floors, who were from a nearby state facility for minimum security inmates.

*That's been the case at both my undergrad and grad schools. Although, Aramark was also the food provider at my graduate school.

Slowminded paraphrased the famous quote, "You can judge a society by how well it treats its prisoners" by Fyodor Dostoevsky, and it's quite true. Private prisons, at least in my personal opinion as someone who has volunteered in state run facilities and taken tours of both public and private facilities, are a stain on American society and reflects how we often put profits ahead of people. RS I'm so sorry you suffered the way you did there and glad you made it out alive. I've heard horror stories of some facilities, no names since this is a public post, about correctional officers on private prisons with farms firing shotguns above the heads of the farming inmates for laughs, not caring if some of the buckshot drops and injures them in the head.

Edit: In fairness for full disclosure, I actually am working (as a volunteer) with a private juvenile detention facility as of this writing to help make certain that their juvenile detainees know their rights and to make certain the staff knows what is and isn't okay. The guy in charge is in it for a profit, but as he sees it, mistreatment doesn't profit him, nor do horror stories, so he tries to keep the place running well and the juveniles there, treated with the humanity they deserve. I've seen him fire people, while I've sat in the room, for violating his code of conduct.

I did not know any of that stuff about the background for our current laws. Very interesting!

Okay, but today, we seem to have a situation where illegal immigrants are coming in and tending farms and doing the jobs that "no one else wants." People who are sentenced to prison terms can be doing those jobs, and their occupying these roles will remove outlets for employment to illegal workers. Also, if prisoners are gainfully employed while incarcerated, what's so wrong with their paychecks going to their families for support? If their costs in prison are met, then shouldn't their children benefit from their income instead of further costing tax payers to support them too?

The laws made during the great depression serviced the people of that era well... but times have changed. Our laws need to accommodate the world we live in now.
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25-08-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
(25-08-2016 01:30 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The laws made during the great depression serviced the people of that era well... but times have changed. Our laws need to accommodate the world we live in now.

Too bad our lawmakers are too corrupt/lazy/inept to do what seems obvious to most everyone else.
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25-08-2016, 01:46 PM
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
(25-08-2016 01:30 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 01:08 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Been trying not to comment in here, lest I lose my temper with someone who is now no longer with us...but now that he isn't, this is a question I can somewhat answer. On the self-funded communities question, that is. You can thank the Federal government and the Great Depression respectively. While we've repealed some of the laws that went into place during the Depression related to prison industry, there are still a great deal about what is and isn't allowed to compete in the public marketplace. During the Depression, the government acted swiftly (and in my opinion correctly) to place great limitations on what prison industry was allowed to do and who they could sell to, because they were undercutting jobs of still employed American workers and posing a risk to the national economy. Also, one of FDR's aids, a sociologist of crime, was said to have warned that if we let prisons put people out of work, they might turn to crime to feed their families, causing both crime and economic damage in the form of theft, and then the court costs, then the costs to house and feed them in prison, and thus create something of a poverty to prison loop. (Sadly we have, arguably, one of these today...but during the Depression such a thing would have been a threat to the economy and national security.)

Basically the remnants of those laws are why we see things like Congressional desks being made in prison settings. Or public universities using inmates to do their lawnwork*. Or other prisons for that matter. One Federal penitentiary I once toured, had people who were doing the lawnwork and mopping the lobby floors, who were from a nearby state facility for minimum security inmates.

*That's been the case at both my undergrad and grad schools. Although, Aramark was also the food provider at my graduate school.

Slowminded paraphrased the famous quote, "You can judge a society by how well it treats its prisoners" by Fyodor Dostoevsky, and it's quite true. Private prisons, at least in my personal opinion as someone who has volunteered in state run facilities and taken tours of both public and private facilities, are a stain on American society and reflects how we often put profits ahead of people. RS I'm so sorry you suffered the way you did there and glad you made it out alive. I've heard horror stories of some facilities, no names since this is a public post, about correctional officers on private prisons with farms firing shotguns above the heads of the farming inmates for laughs, not caring if some of the buckshot drops and injures them in the head.

Edit: In fairness for full disclosure, I actually am working (as a volunteer) with a private juvenile detention facility as of this writing to help make certain that their juvenile detainees know their rights and to make certain the staff knows what is and isn't okay. The guy in charge is in it for a profit, but as he sees it, mistreatment doesn't profit him, nor do horror stories, so he tries to keep the place running well and the juveniles there, treated with the humanity they deserve. I've seen him fire people, while I've sat in the room, for violating his code of conduct.

I did not know any of that stuff about the background for our current laws. Very interesting!

Okay, but today, we seem to have a situation where illegal immigrants are coming in and tending farms and doing the jobs that "no one else wants." People who are sentenced to prison terms can be doing those jobs, and their occupying these roles will remove outlets for employment to illegal workers. Also, if prisoners are gainfully employed while incarcerated, what's so wrong with their paychecks going to their families for support? If their costs in prison are met, then shouldn't their children benefit from their income instead of further costing tax payers to support them too?

The laws made during the great depression serviced the people of that era well... but times have changed. Our laws need to accommodate the world we live in now.

Thanks, I thought it was interesting too, when hearing about it! And I agree with you that it would make sense to change at least some of the laws to better reflect the era we live in now, beyond some that have already been repealed.* I personally wouldn't mind seeing what you've suggested there, because it would probably help people more, though, they'd probably have to increase the pay rate for it to be good for people's families if they could send the money out instead of just adding it to a commissary account.

Right now, the pay range for paid inmate labor in the U.S. can range from ten cents an hour to whatever is decided by the state, federal government, or other entity running the facility. The Federal Prison Industry program (known as UNICOR) has some 83 factories around the United States, but only pays its prison workers a range from between 23 cents to $1.15 per hour, and tends to be considered on the high side of "employee" payment.

RS mentioned the law library gig paying well for the environment, and I think he said $40 a month? I was shocked it was that well paying sadly. x.x


*Totally not what you meant needed repealed, and I know you didn't mean it, but just one that I think folks may find interesting...one of the systems of prison labor that used to be big was the buying of people's contracts from the prison. Basically a private company, say a railroad or coal mine, would house, feed, and guard the inmates and have total control over their lives. Making them essentially slave labor for the company. But yeah, know what you mean about the ones that probably should be repealed for now.

Random thought: Now you've got me thinking I need to try and look and see if anyone's thought of your idea there, and tried publishing it in Criminology and Public Policy, which is written for accessibility to both academics and practitioners, and tends to discuss policy ideas regarding how stuff works in the system. It sounds like something one of their frequent contributors, Todd Clear, would bring up.

Edit: Also the sending money out brings up a thought. While some states allow inmates to send money out, I don't know offhand if all do, or the Feds do, and imagine private companies would have their own thoughts on the matter.

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25-08-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Can Privatized Prisons Work?
(25-08-2016 12:51 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Why has this pissed you off so much ? Especially as when the victim explained it to me I was at pains too say I meant no disrespect and was just angry that a decent member had been accused of pedarasty ? I'm sure you do a great job but I refute that my post was shite it was a post of support and care for a fellow member but fuck it I'm out of here never let it be said I stayed anywhere I was not wanted I'll pop in to collect personal messages and anyone who wants to stay in contact I will give them my email . Very sad right now Sad infact almost in tears as tta means so much to me.

I haven't been here for about a year and a half now so I don't personally know you at all. However, you have a 36 reputation in a year's time so there must be a lot of people here that value your contributions.

Please understand that moderating a forum is often thankless. It's a lot of drudge work reading through all the posts, dealing with the undesirables, deciding borderline situations, and then having many people complain that the wrong decision was made or no decision was made at all. It's enough to get under anyone's skin and the moderators have been doing this literally for years, and voluntarily.

You certainly aren't the first person to state some dissatisfaction with the moderating so, at a certain level, the reaction that you got was not only to you, but to all those before you who complained when, from a moderator's perspective, it was out of line.

The point I'm trying to make is for this not be stretched out of proportion. You had the right to state your mind and you did so. But you should understand that the people you're complaining about also have the right to state their minds in response and one of them did.

No one was asking you to leave. It was simply being pointed out that statements like the one you made are oversimplified and solutions that would please everyone are not as easy as it may seem. So you were being asked to accept things as they are, trust that there are well-founded reasons for them, and to live with them.

As I said, you have obviously made valuable contributions here and especially since you said TTA means so much to you, then you shouldn't let this cause you to leave. And I hope you don't.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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